Eligibility proposal

[Hibernian]

Obviously you give a toss or you wouldn't be intervening.

If you've a problem, take it up with Gavin Zac, not me: he introduced the argument.

Sorry I taught you could back up your own arguments and dont need someone else to do them for you

[GavinZac]

I don't think the Irish flag implies Britain to be a colony.

And the Union Jack doesnt imply Ireland to be a colony, nor wales nor Scotland. if they were including colonies there'd be some references to the commonwealth in there, no?

The Orange (not Gold or Yellow, muppetts) represents the Protestant tradition. Perhaps our non-Orange friends find this offensive, but it means that you can be Irish and not be Catholic.

This may be news to you, but the Orange has little to do with religion and a lot to do with Willhem of Orange. On our flag, it represents that you can be both Irish and British.

[Blanchflower]

Some northern nationalists (republicans in other words)are accused of never being happy with whatever the IFA does. I'm saying the same with certain Northern unionists.

Which ones? I'm sure most, if not all, would be happy if there were an even-handed policy. I certainly would.

If they don't like it, go set up your own 6C side with GSTQ and the butchers apron. Not unreasonable suggestion. You have your own 6C football side.

I'm sure many would be very happy to have a NI rugby team, but there isn't one and isn't likely ever to be one. Is it too much to ask for an even-handed approach in respect of flags and anthems? Why such hostility towards such a simple request?

It is a Ireland team.

Indeed: all-Ireland.

I don't expect England to stand to the anthems of Ireland, India, Pakistan, Jamaica etc. in sport.

Nor would I. Who's suggesting that they should?

Why should the Irish rugby team do likewise.

No idea. Who's suggesting that it should?

While I agree the SS would have to go in an all-Ireland state, if Ireland's call was made the Irish national anthem tomorrow you'd still get people saying it doesn't represent me. Personally, if you're not happy, set up your own 6C team.

Not sure what point you're trying to make. People aren't objecting to the Soldier's Song as a song - it's the fact that the ROI anthem is being used for an all-Ireland team. It doesn't matter what song is used as the anthem.

Why should rugby people from NI have to choose between a biased set-up in respect of flags and anthems and setting up their own team? Wouldn't it be fairer and more reasonable to have an even-handed or neutral set-up?

If NI had its own anthem that's fine. The Sash is the most extreme one you could go for, but I'd agree to it.

So you're saying NI can have any anthem it likes, as long as its not GSTQ? Why's that?

Presumably the NI flag would do, although why not have both at every game.

I'd love to know. Presumably because of prejudice on the part of the IRFU?

But seriously, the same one as England?

So if England stopped using GSTQ (and used, say, Jerusalem instead), you would be happy with GSTQ?

BTW, the IRFU treating a game in Belfast as an away game is a disgrace.

If you agree that it is a disgrace, why are you telling NI rugby fans to f*ck off and set up their own team if they also object to it. That makes no sense.

Outside of Dublin, there has been no anthem since partition sanctioned by the IRFU (it seems that other unions have had their own idea on the matter).

Not true. GSTQ used to be used up until the 1950s.

What about matches in Limerick?

Not really. Some people actually believe Ireland is still part of the union.

Yanks, I can believe. But not Welsh. Didn't the IRFU point this out to them?

This is actually not me being funny. I know someone who tried discussing the troops on the streets of Dublin a decade ago (and he wasn't a Yank trying to give me money 'for the boys' (Quote Sean Hughes is similar situation: 'But I don't have any children))

I like Sean Hughes.

Again I'm talking about nationality, the highest measurement of identity in most peoples views (passports are not handed out on musical or fashon tastes). I know where you are from, and the majority of that place don't want it to be British.

Depends what you mean by nationality. You seem to be confusing it with citizenship. Regardless, people's Englishness, Irishness, Scottishness or Welshness is not diminished by their Britishness. Your opinion is irrelevant.

Two anthems entails an identity is not replaced by some Disneyesque (which is most people's problem with IC) and rather supplemented by another.

This doesn't appear to make grammatical sense.

I don't see how IC dilutes anyone's identity. Such a claim seems to me like a strange OTT reaction. Why would anyone make their identity dependent on an anthem (of any kind)?

The Irish rugby team may not encompass two sovereign states, but it does the two largest - and more importantly indigenous - nationalities in Ireland (no we can't have the Polish, Chinese and Lithuanian anthems as well). If we can have an anthem that is Irish and unionist (a NI anthem), then play that with the SS.

I don't care whether we have 2 anthems or 1 neutral anthem, as long as there is mutual respect and even-handedness.

It claims to represent a country with an indigenous minority who believe that the SS is their anthem.

It doesn't "claim" to represent anything: it actually is the NI national team. Some people's "belief" that the SS is their anthem doesn't mean that it is the anthem of NI. It would be ludicrous to play the anthem of the ROI before a NI match!

If you want the rugby team to be totally inclusive, then why not the IFA? Or is this your own 'f*ck off if you don't like it'.

I do want the IFA to be inclusive, and that includes adopting a NI anthem, not playing the Southern anthem as well as GSTQ. It's not the same to compare NI (one country) with the Ireland rugby team (representing two countries).

Basically f*ck off if you don't like what is played at WP. As I've said to NB, it's academical what you play at NI games now. Fans have long ago gone elsewhere. Now the footballers can too.

The above comment would appear to be irrelevant in response to what I posted, i.e.
If Southerners object to the Northern anthem because they are not British, it is no more or no less stupid for Northerners to object to the Southern anthem because they are not Southern Irish. What some people "believe" about the Southern anthem is irrelevant.

My point remains.

The IFA.

Who is asking the IFA to "recognise the symbols of Irish nationalism" and why?

It has players and fans from the 32C, so that is no longer the case.

It is. It's the ROI team. Having fans or picking players from NI does not alter that.

[Blanchflower]

Sorry I taught you could back up your own arguments and dont need someone else to do them for you

To which arguments are you referring?

I was asking questions of Gavin Zac, not putting forward an argument. Try reading the thread before posting.

[Hibernian]

To which arguments are you referring?

I was asking questions of Gavin Zac, not putting forward an argument. Try reading the thread before posting.

Well if you read it properly you would have.

[Drumcondra 69er]

And the Union Jack doesnt imply Ireland to be a colony, nor wales nor Scotland. if they were including colonies there'd be some references to the commonwealth in there, no?

This may be news to you, but the Orange has little to do with religion and a lot to do with Willhem of Orange. On our flag, it represents that you can be both Irish and British.

Not entirely true, it represnts the Catrholic and Protestant traditions on the island with the white signifying a truce between them. It was included to try and reconcile Irish Protestants with the independence movement. Independence in in this instance meaning indpedendent from Britain.

[Blanchflower]

It's all the trapping sof imperialism to the majority of the Irish.

How's that?

A bit like the Union Jack with a swastika though it as the flag of Nazi rule.

I've never seen such a flag, nor do I see how it would be anything like the St Patrick's Cross.

Or the fact that NI does not have its own anthem. .

How would that stop them flying the NI flag?

[Blanchflower]

Well if you read it properly you would have.

Sorry, that doesn't answer my question (which, I'll remind you, was: "to which arguments are you referring?"). Should you wish to engage properly in discussion, I will respond. Otherwise, I'll ignore you.

[GavinZac]

Not entirely true, it represnts the Catrholic and Protestant traditions on the island with the white signifying a truce between them. It was included to try and reconcile Irish Protestants with the independence movement. Independence in in this instance meaning indpedendent from Britain.

Why would religion have anything to do with nationality?

[Hibernian]

Sorry, that doesn't answer my question (which, I'll remind you, was: "to which arguments are you referring?"). Should you wish to engage properly in discussion, I will respond. Otherwise, I'll ignore you.

If you had looked at my first mail (which you did to some degree) you have have been able to reply.

Now I see you have very strong opinion about this topic and you cant seem to answer my question which is fair enough as I see from your other posts you do seem to get wound up about a bloody flag quite easily.

[Blanchflower]

Why would religion have anything to do with nationality?

Ask the Israelis.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Why would religion have anything to do with nationality?

It doesn't. That's the point. However, when the flag was originally designed in the 1840's relegion was very much part of one's identity on this island. The flag was to symbolise both of the main identities and peace between them within a soveriegn independent Ireland. It never really caught on pre 1916 as a symbol in any case.

[Blanchflower]

If you had looked at my first mail (which you did to some degree) you have have been able to reply.

The point was to question Gavin Zac about his understanding of nationality/identity.

[GavinZac]

Ask the Israelis.

I recommend you read "How Israel lost" for a good explanation of how Israel is a secular state for people of "Hebrew" and Yiddish ethnicity, rather than of Jewish faith.

[Hibernian]

The point was to question Gavin Zac about his understanding of nationality/identity.

No the question was for you.

You cant answer fair enough.

Seems to me you still live in the 1920's and when you bring in stupid comments like the Middle East it just goes to show how sad you are.

[Blanchflower]

I recommend you read "How Israel lost" for a good explanation of how Israel is a secular state for people of "Hebrew" and Yiddish ethnicity, rather than of Jewish faith.

It's all right, I believe you. It wasn't a serious comment in any case.

[Blanchflower]

No the question was for you.

And I have answered it.

You cant answer fair enough.

I did.

Seems to me you still live in the 1920's

Why does it seem like that to you?

and when you bring in stupid comments like the Middle East it just goes to show how sad you are.

Why do you think that?

[Hibernian]

And I have answered it.


I did.


Why does it seem like that to you?


Why do you think that?

I could not be bothered this is joke right??

[Lionel Ritchie]

Not entirely true, it represnts the Catrholic and Protestant traditions on the island with the white signifying a truce between them. It was included to try and reconcile Irish Protestants with the independence movement. Independence in in this instance meaning indpedendent from Britain.

What has the colour Green got to do with Catholicism?.

If the flag was designed with the guidelines you're suggesting there'd be Marian Blue or Papal Yellow in it.

The green is supposed to represent Irish Nationalism ...with no reference whatsoever to the religious affiliation, if any, of the Nationalist people.

[Blanchflower]

I could not be bothered this is joke right??

You've been bothered up until now.

No, it's not a joke.