Eligibility proposal

[Irish_Praha]

Wow I leave this thread for a week and come back to see it's almost 30 pages I haven't read past the first page when it had a different title and Paul O'shea was patting himself on the back but the last few comments seem fair enough.

[CollegeTillIDie]

Wow I leave this thread for a week and come back to see it's almost 30 pages I haven't read past the first page when it had a different title and Paul O'shea was patting himself on the back but the last few comments seem fair enough.

What do you need to do to become a Czech citizen Irish_Praha? I ask for reasons of comparison you see. Is there an English version of the legislation online?

[Gather round]

NI were still insisting it be the father (i.e. a mother wasn't sufficient). As to why this should have been so, my guess is that there were mixed reasons

Most obvious reason is that we/they are sexist fcukers

[lopez]

No. Why are you asking?

So the IFA do not have a quota on using players who are not born in Northern Ireland?

Not mock disgust: genuine anger at your suggestion that someone is "more" Irish because of his political views.

Anyone who places their Irishness as a nationality above a regional accident of birth is more Irish. I would have thought that was obvious. As someone who has stated that the 'Southern Ireland' (sic.) is a foreign country, means you are definitely the latter.

Don't know what you're getting at - there's a choice between the above and saying a nationalist is more Irish than a non-nationalist? That doesn't follow at all.

See above

It doesn't: an ROI citizen is no "more" Irish than a UK citizen from NI.

There is no such thing as a ROI citizen no more than there is a NI citizen. The choice of nationality and citizenship - which is what we're talking about here - born in the 6C for most is Irish, British, or both.

That was the case in the popular consciousness.

'Popular consciousness' (???) also considers NI fans as a bunch of bigots (cue Not Brazil to come in), which was epitomised in a popular play by Marie Jones, which is making another tour of Britain, 12 years after it was written. Is this 'popular consciousness' true?

I made no comment on Heighway's links - I don't know what his links were. I do know, though, that the ROI team in the 70s could not be characterised in the same way as the Charlton team in terms of English and Scots players.
You made a comment about how homogenous the 70s Ireland team was.

Heighway was born in Dublin. That is his link, the spot he was dropped in. He didn't grow up there; neither of his parents were from there. But yet, he's more Irish than David O'Leary or Paul McGrath, in your opinion.

Because I'm from NI. Therefore Northern Irish. NI is in Ireland. Therefore Irish. NI is in the UK. Therefore British. How is that not obvious?

Wow! Now that's what I call an identity crisis.

If you ever go to America you'll probably meet people who are 3/4 Portuguese and 1/4 Irish, have never been to Ireland, yet who proudly tell you that they are Irish. I have!

So you get all high and mighty about your identity but like to tell others what they are or aren't. I'd call that fascism (Oh and before your and NB or EG go into one, about what I said above, I'm talking about nationality/citizenship here, which let me remind you all is what this thread is about)

So the fact that not all these born and reared in Britain weren't granny rulers doesn't mean that the majority of the team wasn't born and reared in Britain.

I'll say it again: So?

Yes, in my experience.

See my remark about NI fans.

...If the "Chinaman" (allusions of racism)...

LOL

Historically, of the four "home" nations, NI have always been the most resistant to picking non-NI born players. For example, when the others were selecting players on account of a parent, NI were still insisting it be the father (i.e. a mother wasn't sufficient).

Sounds like sexism here. If this was at a time when nationality was based on paternal links (e.g. Spain's prior to 2003), then understandable, if not acceptable. If this was continued afterwards, I think this should be condemmned.

And when Grandparents came to be accepted by FIFA, the IFA were again the last of the four to avail of this.

Is this relevent? We've had an acceptance of the rules, and players have since been picked. Had the rules been in place Alan Kernaghan would have played for you. What difference is it if you were the first or last?

As to why this should have been so, my guess is that there were mixed reasons. Some within the IFA will have felt this as a matter of principle i.e. international selection is an honour resulting from the circumstances of ones birth or heritage, not a convenience or a contrivance etc.

So there was some form of discrimination against people wanting to represent NI.?

That said, once the dam has been breeched, you can't put the water back in, so we might as well accept it as the "way of the world" and make the best of it, a factor which is reinforced by the fact that some of my all-time favourite players like Quinn and Dowie were born outside the Province.

This is thing I have problems with. The one thing that I've never seen on ourweecountry is the slagging off of a player because of where he was born or his non-existant link with NI. This is not something I can say about foot.ie. Routinely you'll get more than the odd w*nker on here calling so and so 'English' or 'Scottish' and shouldn't be playing for Ireland (Blanchflower not included), of which I and others have taken to task. I'm not going to say that I've seen Lennon and Rogan being slagged off on owc because I haven't got a post I can go to (whether the poster gets slagged off or is a resident of Kerry is irelevent, as the same happens here) but this has happened at NI matches. Point is, NI fans are constantly banging on about us 'begging' 'stealing' or 'borrowing' players, but reality is that you are just as bad. In fact for a sizeable minority, players with no links to the 6C are far more acceptable than certain players with birth links to the 6C.

Anyhow, your somewhat sneering assertion that we couldn't get the players to play for us is probably the least of the reasons for our situation. In fact, I seem to remember a player who was brought up in NI, who represented NI at schoolboy level, who wanted to play for our senior team, for a manager who wanted to pick him, was eligible by having all four grandparents NI born and bred, but was sadly rejected by the IFA since we weren't prepared to break our policy of only allowing qualification by birth or parent. What was his name again? Alan Kernaghan?

Wasn't that policy a joint four association decision or a unilateral IFA decision?

[Gather round]

Anyone who places their Irishness as a nationality above a regional accident of birth is more Irish. I would have thought that was obvious. As someone who has stated that the 'Southern Ireland' (sic) is a foreign country, means you are definitely the latter

Not obvious at all. You'll have to explain it. We can regard you as foreign yet equally Irish.

The Southern Ireland thing MAY read a little snidely sometimes, but be reasonable. Ye can't expect us to refer you as Ireland in a discussion about the two teams, or pretty much anything reflecting partition. Anyway, it's more up to date than 'Free state'


'Popular consciousness' (???) also considers NI fans as a bunch of bigots (cue Not Brazil to come in), which was epitomised in a popular play by Marie Jones, which is making another tour of Britain, 12 years after it was written. Is this 'popular consciousness' true?

Aye, and Marie's Shakespeare, Lady Gregory and Aphra Behn rolled into one. Come off it- if you've seen the play, it's clearly ephemeral paddywhackery of the first rank

PS I was only joking about Prince Albert...

[Blanchflower]

Anyone who places their Irishness as a nationality above a regional accident of birth is more Irish. I would have thought that was obvious. As someone who has stated that the 'Southern Ireland' (sic.) is a foreign country, means you are definitely the latter.

Outrageous chauvinism. You don't have a monopoly on deciding what Irishness means and you have no authority to assign people on some kind of scale of Irishness. Such attitudes are the very cause of our divisions in Ireland.

There is no such thing as a ROI citizen no more than there is a NI citizen. The choice of nationality and citizenship - which is what we're talking about here - born in the 6C for most is Irish, British, or both.

Quite clearly there is such a thing as ROI citizen, i.e. someone who is a citizen of ROI. You need to learn what the distinction between identity and citizenship is.

Wow! Now that's what I call an identity crisis.

If your intellect is insufficiently developed to be able to grasp anything more subtle than binary and mutual exclusive identities, I suggest you are nearer to being in crisis than I am or the millions across the world who are capable of understanding that identity is more complex than you are capable of comprehending.

So you get all high and mighty about your identity but like to tell others what they are or aren't.

I don't tell anyone what he is or isn't, so your point is nonsensical.

So?

So why did you challenge the statement if you accept that it is correct?

[ifk101]

The Southern Ireland thing MAY read a little snidely sometimes, but be reasonable. Ye can't expect us to refer you as Ireland in a discussion about the two teams, or pretty much anything reflecting partition. Anyway, it's more up to date than 'Free state'

The official name of "Southern Ireland", "The Free State", "Mexico" etc etc, or whatever you want to call it is Ireland. This is not meant to be offensive to anyone - it's merely a statement of fact.

[Blanchflower]

The official name of "Southern Ireland", "The Free State", "Mexico" etc etc, or whatever you want to call it is Ireland. This is not meant to be offensive to anyone - it's merely a statement of fact.

Also happens to be a misnomer.

PS. Your legislature passed an act to say its "official description" is "Republic of Ireland".

[ifk101]

Also happens to be a misnomer.

PS. Your legislature passed an act to say its "official description" is "Republic of Ireland".

.... to describe Ireland's form of government.

[Gather round]

The official name of "Southern Ireland", "The Free State", "Mexico" etc etc, or whatever you want to call it is Ireland. This is not meant to be offensive to anyone - it's merely a statement of fact.

None taken, 1FK. But none intended, either. You are not all of Ireland, so we are not going to refer to you as Ireland. You really can't be surprised at this, surely?

It's not quite the same thing as North Korea/ Mexico, and other knockabout banter. More like the need to correct the English who sometimes use Britain to mean England and vice versa.

PS Verpa and his boys are gonna win at yours, I'm convinced of it. Be very afraid, Sweden.

Or should I say Konunvariget Sverige

[ifk101]

You are not all of Ireland, so we are not going to refer to you as Ireland. You really can't be surprised at this, surely?

No.

PS Verpa and his boys are gonna win at yours, I'm convinced of it. Be very afraid, Sweden.

Or should I say Konunvariget Sverige

You need to work on your Swedish spelling but yes Latvia have a reasonable chance of causing an upset.

[Blanchflower]

.... to describe Ireland's form of government.

No, to describe the State.

[ifk101]

No, to describe the State.

Describe is the important word here.

[lopez]

Anyone who places their Irishness as a nationality above a regional accident of birth is more Irish. I would have thought that was obvious. As someone who has stated that the 'Southern Ireland' (sic) is a foreign country, means you are definitely the latter

Not obvious at all. You'll have to explain it. We can regard you as foreign yet equally Irish.

I stand by that statement. Yes you can regard me as foreign and Irish through birthplace and ancestry etc., but I have only one passport for when I go abroad, not two or three. The fact that the country I was born in considers me a citizen has as much relevence as the Irish government, considering Ian Paisley as a citizen of their state by being born in Ireland. I am still a citizen of the UK because I haven't the time, money or the inclination to get a declaration of alienage, but neither have I ever purchased a British passport, and I never will (which is the reason they managed to convict William Joyce as a traitor). For me to suggest I'm as British as Terry Butcher is ridiculous.

The Southern Ireland thing MAY read a little snidely sometimes, but be reasonable. Ye can't expect us to refer you as Ireland in a discussion about the two teams, or pretty much anything reflecting partition. Anyway, it's more up to date than 'Free state'

There are two states on these islands. There are two teams on this island. If you are talking about nationality and citizenship of a country, then we are talking about two states.

'Popular consciousness' (???) also considers NI fans as a bunch of bigots (cue Not Brazil to come in), which was epitomised in a popular play by Marie Jones, which is making another tour of Britain, 12 years after it was written. Is this 'popular consciousness' true?

Aye, and Marie's Shakespeare, Lady Gregory and Aphra Behn rolled into one. Come off it- if you've seen the play, it's clearly ephemeral paddywhackery of the first rank

Yes I've seen the play, and yes Alice in Wonderland is more realistic. The only thing good about it is if it p*sses off the people who did shout sectarian abuse at the match (and when I visited WP the following year). However, point is this is as much a part of 'popular consciousness' as the Irish team being full of people with guinness supping grannies. Both a simplistic fairy tales, one of which Blanchflower completely believes in, despite, as you've pointed out, NI uses the same rules and adds other UK citizens with no connection with NI

[B]PS I was only joking about Prince Albert...

Glad to hear that. BTW; is the Queen Victoria the female equivalent of that practice?

Outrageous chauvinism. You don't have a monopoly on deciding what Irishness means and you have no authority to assign people on some kind of scale of Irishness. Such attitudes are the very cause of our divisions in Ireland.

We have a monopoly on Irish citizenship. There is no other sovereign Irish state, in case you haven't noticed

Quite clearly there is such a thing as ROI citizen, i.e. someone who is a citizen of ROI. You need to learn what the distinction between identity and citizenship is.

This is called Irish citizenship. Any Irish identity that considers Ireland (or any part of it) to be part of Britain, relegates Ireland to something little better than the old county of Yorkshire.

If your intellect is insufficiently developed to be able to grasp anything more subtle than binary and mutual exclusive identities, I suggest you are nearer to being in crisis than I am or the millions across the world who are capable of understanding that identity is more complex than you are capable of comprehending.

You should follow your own advice when giving out about 1/4 Irish claiming to be Irish. If they have Irish citizenship (through a passport) then they are Irish. Get over it!

I don't tell anyone what he is or isn't, so your point is nonsensical.

And yet you wrote this: 'I find it strange that someone with 3 English grandparents and 1 Irish grandparent would consider himself "100% Irish" and have no affinity with Britain. Such a person must be very poor at arithmetic or have some kind of identity crisis.' Question is: Who are you to tell someone with a passport of a country, that they are not citizens of that country?

So why did you challenge the statement if you accept that it is correct?

I was wondering what is the problem with a country picking the best players at your disposal who are citizens of that country?

BTW, I've noticed that you haven't re-confirmed that the IFA have or have not a quota on foreign born players playing for NI. I take it they don't. That means that the reason their teams haven't been dominated by the 'grannies' or the 'naturalised' as Ireland allegedly has, is because either the NI players have been better or the 'grannies' and 'naturalised' who have 'declared' for NI haven't been of sufficient quality. In other words, given the same situation as Ireland, they'd be equally as unchoosy who they picked.

[lopez]

You need to work on your Swedish spelling but yes Latvia have a reasonable chance of causing an upset.

I can't see Spain not winning though. They are on fire, crushing a decent Swedish side in Madrid, although they could do with a NI upset to bring them down to earth a bit.

[Maroon 7]

No, to describe the State.

It's merely a description of the state. Not the actual name of the state.

The actual name of the state is Ireland as per the constitution.

That's why at the UN and EU we're referred to as Ireland.

[lopez]

Also happens to be a misnomer.

PS. Your legislature passed an act to say its "official description" is "Republic of Ireland".

France is called Republique de France, Germany is called Bundesrepublik Deutschland, Spain is called Reino de Espana, Israel is State of Israel. What's the point here?

[lopez]

EG also claims that the words 'Republic of' are used on tickets and programmes. The last time the FAI used 'Republic of Ireland' on a programme was against Finland in 2000. Few foreign countries use Republic of Ireland in their own language on programmes (San Marino, Portugal, France and of course Wales are exceptions in the last seven years).

[Dodge]

That's why at the UN and EU we're referred to as Ireland.

Thats why everywhere in the world we're called Ireland

From Article 4 of the constitution

The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland

Is everyone else looking forward to 20 more pages when the final decision comes.

[Blanchflower]

We have a monopoly on Irish citizenship. There is no other sovereign Irish state, in case you haven't noticed

Obviously the ROI has a monopoly on ROI citizenship! Care to make any other statements of the obvious?

Your statement of the obvious doesn't diminish in any way the outrageous chauvinism of your statements about some people being "more" Irish than others on account of their political views.

This is called Irish citizenship.

Indeed, but it is, in fact, citizenship only of the ROI. NI is not part of the ROI.

Any Irish identity that considers Ireland (or any part of it) to be part of Britain, relegates Ireland to something little better than the old county of Yorkshire.

Ireland is an island. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. The Republic is an independent state. Those are indisputable facts. It does not follow that those who acknowledge and state such facts "relegate" Ireland to "something little better than the old county of Yorkshire" (whatever on earth you mean by that).

You should follow your own advice when giving out about 1/4 Irish claiming to be Irish.

I merely observe that I find it odd that someone who is 3/4 British and 1/4 Irish claims to be 100% Irish.

That observation is not inconsistent with my "advice" (which wasn't advice, but a retort to your irrational charge of my having an identity crisis). It remains my view that those who are intellectually capable of understanding and discerning multiple identities are at less risk of having an identity crisis than those who are only able to view the world one-dimensionally and cannot understand how someone's identity might be more subtle and nuanced than simply "Irish" or "British" or any other identity. Ironically, the example that you quote actually backs up this view!

If they have Irish citizenship (through a passport) then they are Irish. Get over it!

No-one, to my knowledge, has claimed otherwise.

And yet you wrote this: 'I find it strange that someone with 3 English grandparents and 1 Irish grandparent would consider himself "100% Irish" and have no affinity with Britain. Such a person must be very poor at arithmetic or have some kind of identity crisis.' Question is: Who are you to tell someone with a passport of a country, that they are not citizens of that country?

I have never told anyone who has a passport of a country that he is not a citizen of that country, so your question has no basis.

I was wondering what is the problem with a country picking the best players at your disposal who are citizens of that country?

In the case of the Charlton team, the problem is merely that many people didn't take them as seriously as they ought to have done due to all the granny-rulers. Took away from their success to a degree.

BTW, I've noticed that you haven't re-confirmed that the IFA have or have not a quota on foreign born players playing for NI.

I'm not in the habit of responding to inane questions.

I take it they don't. That means that the reason their teams haven't been dominated by the 'grannies' or the 'naturalised' as Ireland allegedly has, is because either the NI players have been better or the 'grannies' and 'naturalised' who have 'declared' for NI haven't been of sufficient quality. In other words, given the same situation as Ireland, they'd be equally as unchoosy who they picked.

No - I think it's been pointed out several times that NI didn't avail of the granny rule for many years. Indeed, they had much tighter eligibility criteria than the South.