Eligibility proposal

[lopez]

So Houghton qualified through a parent and wasn't actually a granny-ruler.

According to Stephen McGarrigle's 'The Complete Who's Who of Irish International Football: 1945- 1996', Ray's father was Irish. I met his mother in Glasgow before the 1987 Scotland game and I remember her having a Scottish accent.

Other's qualifying through their grannies upto 1996 are John Aldridge, Tony Cascarino, Tommy Coyne, Tony Galvin, Alan Kernaghan, Jason McAteer, Eamonn O'Keefe, Bernie Slaven, Andy Townsend

Michael Robinson qualified through a great grandparent before pre-natal Irish citizenship was required for someone of fourth generation to qualify for Irish citizenship.

Since 1996, I can think of Clinton Morrison and Lee Carsley. You could get a team out of the above if you can find a keeper. Peter Thomas was English through and through, but played for Ireland as he was living in Waterford at the time.

Is that because of where you are arrested, i.e. the UK? Presumably if you were arrested elsewhere you could seek the assistance of either government? What if you were arrested in ROI - would you be entitled to seek assistance of the UK government?

Exactly, that is the reason. Elsewhere outside the EU you can avail of any EU embassy or Consulate, if you are ever in the sh*te. It might not be a problem for someone of British citizenship where Conulates are abundant, but if you're Irish, that peice of information could be priceless.

In the arrested-in-UK scenario, can you not seek assistance from ROI government because of British rules or ROI rules?

Don't know. It used to state on the old Irish passport those of dual-nationality cannot get consular assistance in the country of the other nationality. I can only presume its because you are a citizen of that country, and no other country can intefere with what happens because you are a citizen of that country (obvious exceptions being cases like Nelson Mandela, Mordechai Vanunu, Andrei Sakharov...even the Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, Maguire Seven, who would count as dual citizens of Britain and Ireland)

Not having a passport has no bearing on your citizenship.

The majority of Americans don't have passports but that does not mean that they aren't US citizens.

Correct. But if you were not born in the Ireland, then a passport is usually the best piece of proof of Irish citizenship there is, because my birth certificate does not mention the nationality or birth place of my parents.

Playing for Ireland has always required Irish citizenship. I remember Michael Robinson being pictured with his passport, as proof of this (His mother also had to get Irish citizenship for him to qualify). It was only in 1997 that FIFA demanded players of dual nationality to present a passport of the country they were playing for (i.e. The Macedonia fiasco of Trigger 'forgetting' his passport).

[Blanchflower]

Michael Robinson qualified through a great grandparent before pre-natal Irish citizenship was required for someone of fourth generation to qualify for Irish citizenship.

Bloody hell.

Elsewhere outside the EU you can avail of any EU embassy or Consulate, if you are ever in the sh*te. It might not be a problem for someone of British citizenship where Conulates are abundant, but if you're Irish, that peice of information could be priceless.

Didn't know that. Interesting and useful, although as you say the UK has a consulate in virtually every country anyway.

Don't know. It used to state on the old Irish passport those of dual-nationality cannot get consular assistance in the country of the other nationality. I can only presume its because you are a citizen of that country, and no other country can intefere with what happens because you are a citizen of that country (obvious exceptions being cases like Nelson Mandela, Mordechai Vanunu, Andrei Sakharov...even the Birmingham Six, Guildford Four, Maguire Seven, who would count as dual citizens of Britain and Ireland)

Probably ROI rules, then, and probably the reverse is true when the situation is reversed. Makes sense, I guess.

Playing for Ireland has always required Irish citizenship.

Not so. The Ireland team played its first match in 1881, before there was such a thing as "Irish" citizenship, and right up until today its successor only requires UK citizenship. Presumably you mean the ROI team?

It was only in 1997 that FIFA demanded players of dual nationality to present a passport of the country they were playing for (i.e. The Macedonia fiasco of Trigger 'forgetting' his passport).

Tell me more.

[osarusan]

Regarding citizenship, the child of an Irish citizen born in R. o. Ireland is automatically an Irish citizen, even though that child was born outside R. o. Ireland. However, the child of a person who acquired citizenship in the above manner is not automatically a citizen, but can become on by applying to become one.

As an example, my daughter Maria,born in Japan, is automatically an Irish citizen due to me being born in Ireland. However, her future children, if they were not born in Ireland, would have to apply for citizenship.

[lopez]

Bloody hell.

They tightened up that rule, although a fourth generation Irish person can still obtain citizenship, except the parent needs to be an Irish citizen at the time of her birth.

Didn't know that. Interesting and useful, although as you say the UK has a consulate in virtually every country anyway.

They tend to have more than one in every country. But say you're in the the DR Congo and you're arrested for being drunk and disorderly, and a hefty fine needs paying, or you get robbed. A British embassy is in Kinshasha which could be the equivalent of a journey across Europe, but this town has a Belgian consulate. They should help.

Probably ROI rules, then, and probably the reverse is true when the situation is reversed. Makes sense, I guess.

I would have thought that.

Not so. The Ireland team played its first match in 1881, before there was such a thing as "Irish" citizenship, and right up until today its successor only requires UK citizenship. Presumably you mean the ROI team?

Tell me more.

Not sure of the whole story but I believe Trigger 'forgot his passport'. He didn't. He brought along his British passport instead. He played because he managed to get his Irish passport - wish he hadn't because he thought he was at a Tae Kwon Do tournament. Cascarino also had a British passport with him. I believe he couldn't get his Irish passport (probably back in France) and I think that he didn't play because of that (this needs verification).

Regarding citizenship, the child of an Irish citizen born in R. o. Ireland is automatically an Irish citizen, even though that child was born outside R. o. Ireland. However, the child of a person who acquired citizenship in the above manner is not automatically a citizen, but can become on by applying to become one.

As an example, my daughter Maria,born in Japan, is automatically an Irish citizen due to me being born in Ireland. However, her future children, if they were not born in Ireland, would have to apply for citizenship.

Or SHE can apply for them when they are born. Either way an additional document is needed (and costs the same as a passport) called a Foreign Births Certificate.

[Blanchflower]

They tend to have more than one in every country. But say you're in the the DR Congo and you're arrested for being drunk and disorderly, and a hefty fine needs paying, or you get robbed. A British embassy is in Kinshasha which could be the equivalent of a journey across Europe, but this town has a Belgian consulate. They should help.

Useful to know.

Not sure of the whole story but I believe Trigger 'forgot his passport'. He didn't. He brought along his British passport instead. He played because he managed to get his Irish passport - wish he hadn't because he thought he was at a Tae Kwon Do tournament. Cascarino also had a British passport with him. I believe he couldn't get his Irish passport (probably back in France) and I think that he didn't play because of that (this needs verification).

So they both had ROI passports, they just didn't bring them?

[Drumcondra 69er]

Not really. NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers.

Off the top of my head, Capaldi, Patterson and Taylor from the current squad, Jimmy Nichol, Chris Nichol , Kevin Wilson, Danny Wilson, Sanchez and Dowie for a start from the past. The fact that we have a far higher population that emigrated would mean that there's always going to be more players of ROI descent available. Notwithstanding the fact that you were later adopting the Grandparent rule then most and only went as far as paremts the insinuation that you occupy some sort of moral high ground on this issue is laughable really.

[Blanchflower]

Off the top of my head, Capaldi, Patterson and Taylor from the current squad, Jimmy Nichol, Chris Nichol , Kevin Wilson, Danny Wilson, Sanchez and Dowie for a start from the past. The fact that we have a far higher population that emigrated would mean that there's always going to be more players of ROI descent available. Notwithstanding the fact that you were later adopting the Grandparent rule then most and only went as far as paremts the insinuation that you occupy some sort of moral high ground on this issue is laughable really.

Out of them at most only Kevin and Danny Wilson were granny-rulers. Jimmy Nicholl was born in Canada to two Ulster parents who moved home when he was an infant and he was brought up in Rathcoole outside Belfast. He speaks with a broad Belfast accent. Sanchez got a grand total of 3 caps. Patterson is uncapped.

But all that is of little relevance - no-one has doubted that NI has availed of players with parental, or grandparental links (or non-UK-born UK nationals)!

The point is that NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers. Naming a few examples as you have done doesn't alter that fact.

And - as you point out - we didn't even avail of the granny rule until well into the 1990s. You were dependent on it throughout the 80s. Don't you remember all the jokes about players being picked because they drank Guinness, etc.?

[geysir]

We made the jokes.

The predictable and already much travelled journey to the moral high ground doesn´t cloud the fact that
a person with automatic citizenship, born in the North, a status supported at constitutional level north and south of the border, is clearly more linked to the Republic than a person born in Hong Kong with a single Irish grandparent.
A person like Darron Gibson is so clearly linked to the Republic that FIFA don´t even bother with the Annex criteria to determine the quality of the link.

[Blanchflower]

We made the jokes.

The predictable and already much travelled journey to the moral high ground doesn´t cloud the fact that
a person with automatic citizenship, born in the North, a status supported at constitutional level north and south of the border, is clearly more linked to the Republic than a person born in Hong Kong with a single Irish grandparent.

How is it clear?

Assuming the Hong Kong guy is also a citizen, then their citizenship is common. The difference is that the Hong Kong guy has a single ROI grandparent, but the NI guy has no ROI grandparents. Therefore the Hong Kong guy's connection is greater.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Out of them at most only Kevin and Danny Wilson were granny-rulers. Jimmy Nicholl was born in Canada to two Ulster parents who moved home when he was an infant and he was brought up in Rathcoole outside Belfast. He speaks with a broad Belfast accent. Sanchez got a grand total of 3 caps. Patterson is uncapped.

But all that is of little relevance - no-one has doubted that NI has availed of players with parental, or grandparental links (or non-UK-born UK nationals)!

The point is that NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers. Naming a few examples as you have done doesn't alter that fact.

And - as you point out - we didn't even avail of the granny rule until well into the 1990s. You were dependent on it throughout the 80s. Don't you remember all the jokes about players being picked because they drank Guinness, etc.?

I'm well aware that the Nicholls were reared in NI, just pointing out the rules regarding descent have been utilised regulalry by NI just as they have by ROI. I've explained why there are more players available of ROI descent given the respective populations.

I remember the jokes alright, most of which originated from the English media which is hardly a hotbed of wit.

And I don't recall the team being 'based around Granny rulers' most of the English and Scots born players were second generation, not third.

Either way, so what, I know plenty of second and third generation Irishmen born and reared in the UK who consider themselves 100% Irish and have no affinity with Britain at all. Hence why we're considered a seperate ethic group in the UK census etc.

[Blanchflower]

I'm well aware that the Nicholls were reared in NI, just pointing out the rules regarding descent have been utilised regulalry by NI just as they have by ROI.

No-one's denied that they've been utilised by NI - the point being made is that the South has utilised them far more - indeed they were hunting for Irish grannies for years before NI started to use the granny rule.

I've explained why there are more players available of ROI descent given the respective populations.

Er, there are also more players available who are actually Irish! ROI has nearly 3 times the population of NI.

I remember the jokes alright, most of which originated from the English media which is hardly a hotbed of wit.

Geysir said you guys made the jokes up. But the point is the Charlton team in the popular consciousness was a team of English and Scotsmen with tenuous links to Ireland. That wasn't far off being accurate. (Note this was never the case in the 70s or before when the ROI had wonderful teams of genuine Irishmen like Brady, Stapleton, Giles, etc.)

And I don't recall the team being 'based around Granny rulers' most of the English and Scots born players were second generation, not third.

There were a lot of granny rulers and the majority of the team was made up of players from England and Scotland.

Either way, so what, I know plenty of second and third generation Irishmen born and reared in the UK who consider themselves 100% Irish and have no affinity with Britain at all.

I find it strange that someone with 3 English grandparents and 1 Irish grandparent would consider himself "100% Irish" and have no affinity with Britain. Such a person must be very poor at arithmetic or have some kind of identity crisis.

[geysir]

How is it clear?

already answered by

automatic citizenship, born in the North, a status supported at constitutional level north and south of the border,

FIFA don´t even bother with the Annex criteria to determine the quality of the link.

[lopez]

Useful to know. So they both had ROI passports, they just didn't bring them?

They had to - or have had one when they first played. FIFA only started checking at this game - hence the mad dash.

It might seem easy to accept the FAI just handed out caps to anyone with an Irish sounding name, but they didn't. Tony Galvin qualified either through his father or grandfather (I think it was the former, but the story that goes with it suggests the latter). Whoever it was, was dead. Galvin didn't have his birth certificate, and didn't even know where he was from. You don't know where your father is from? Or your grandfather for that matter? It took about a year for him to sort this out and didn't hide the fact he wanted to play for England. I started going to Ireland games at this time, and he was particularly detested by 2G supporters who thought he was a p*sstaker. But, the point is, he still qualified for Irish citizenship and he had to prove he did.

...The point is that NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers. Naming a few examples as you have done doesn't alter that fact.

And - as you point out - we didn't even avail of the granny rule until well into the 1990s. You were dependent on it throughout the 80s. Don't you remember all the jokes about players being picked because they drank Guinness, etc.?

As someone who got all defensive about perceiving someone suggesting NI had a quota system of people's religion, are you suggesting the IFA had a quota over people's birth? I would suggest it is ridiculous to allege they did. The IFA, like every other association in the world, picks the best players available to it. However, like the FAI it also picks players with no connection with it's territorial jurisdiction. Unlike the IFA, these players qualify by virtue of the citizenship of that territory. i.e.: There is no such thing as NI citizenship, which renders all this high and might 'beggar' sh*te a bit rich coming from our friends in the North.

As for jokes about 'pints of Guinness', like many stereotypical jokes by the English (I believe they were more keen on this than the Irish), it smacks of hypocrisy and double standards as the glass in the greenhouse comes crashing down around them. Let's not forget the ammount of foreigners that were in the English cricket team of the eighties, or John Barnes (who let's face it has to go back a few further generations than his granny to find an English ancestor).

How is it clear?

Assuming the Hong Kong guy is also a citizen, then their citizenship is common. The difference is that the Hong Kong guy has a single ROI grandparent, but the NI guy has no ROI grandparents. Therefore the Hong Kong guy's connection is greater.

As someone with two Irish grandparents, I see Gibson as clearly more Irish than me, purely by growing up a nationalist (this isn't based on his religion - Ronnie Bunting, Ivan Cooper, Stephen Rea - before you start booting off again) in Ireland, no matter what side of the border he lived.

You see this purely on partitional grounds. Ireland was one country originally; the majority wanted it to be united (and probably independent) at its partition; the reason it is partitioned is not based on any historical border but on the imperialistic whim of the British government and a minority of the Irish population. That's why we 'nationalists' have this 'fixation' with a 32 county Ireland.

[lopez]

Geysir said you guys made the jokes up. But the point is the Charlton team in the popular consciousness was a team of English and Scotsmen with tenuous links to Ireland.

Having two Irish parents is a 'tenuous link'?

That wasn't far off being accurate. (Note this was never the case in the 70s or before when the ROI had wonderful teams of genuine Irishmen like Brady, Stapleton, Giles, etc.)

And Steve Heighway...or Peter Thomas?

There were a lot of granny rulers

At the last count, twelve.

I find it strange that someone with 3 English grandparents and 1 Irish grandparent would consider himself "100% Irish" and have no affinity with Britain. Such a person must be very poor at arithmetic or have some kind of identity crisis.

Speaking of identity crisis, are you Irish, Northern Irish, British, or like EG, NB and the holy trinity, all three?

[Drumcondra 69er]

Er, there are also more players available who are actually Irish! ROI has nearly 3 times the population of NI.


There were a lot of granny rulers and the majority of the team was made up of players from England and Scotland.


I find it strange that someone with 3 English grandparents and 1 Irish grandparent would consider himself "100% Irish" and have no affinity with Britain. Such a person must be very poor at arithmetic or have some kind of identity crisis.

Hence my point aboput there also being more secind and third generation Irish available for the 26c then the 6c.

There weren't a lot of Granny rulers, out of the team against Italy in 94 I'm fairly certain Townsend was the only 'Granny ruler' with possibly Tommy Coyne (not sure there) who wouldn't have played had Quinn been fit. Keane, Staunton, Irwin, Bonner were all born in the 26 counties and McGrath reared here. Babb, Phelan, Houghton and Sheridan were all second generation.

Game against Italy in 1990 had a similar split. Hardly based around 'Granny rulers' as you put it.

Where did I say that the people I know have 3 English grandparents?

[Blanchflower]

already answered by

automatic citizenship, born in the North, a status supported at constitutional level north and south of the border,

FIFA don´t even bother with the Annex criteria to determine the quality of the link.

Yeah, but if the Hong Kong guy is also a citizen then they're equal on that score. But the Hong Kong guy has 1 ROI grandparent and the NI guy has no ROI grandparents, so the Hong Kong guy wins.

[Blanchflower]

As someone who got all defensive about perceiving someone suggesting NI had a quota system of people's religion, are you suggesting the IFA had a quota over people's birth?

What's a quota system over people's birth?

There is no such thing as NI citizenship, which renders all this high and might 'beggar' sh*te a bit rich coming from our friends in the North.

That's irrelevant - the point is that NI never had teams dependent on people from outside NI - the ROI had an entire era of such teams. That is a fact - no point in denying it.

As someone with two Irish grandparents, I see Gibson as clearly more Irish than me, purely by growing up a nationalist (this isn't based on his religion - Ronnie Bunting, Ivan Cooper, Stephen Rea - before you start booting off again) in Ireland, no matter what side of the border he lived.

So someone brought up a nationalist is more Irish than someone brought up a unionist? That's an appalling attitude.

Anyway, no-one has said Gibson isn't Irish - obviously he is - he was born and brought up in Ireland, just like me, for example. The point is he has little connection with the ROI. ROI doesn't have a monopoly on being Irish.

You see this purely on partitional grounds. Ireland was one country originally; the majority wanted it to be united (and probably independent) at its partition; the reason it is partitioned is not based on any historical border but on the imperialistic whim of the British government and a minority of the Irish population. That's why we 'nationalists' have this 'fixation' with a 32 county Ireland.

Nice simplistic assessment. But it doesn't alter the fact that there are two countries in Ireland, and Gibson is from NI, not ROI.

[Blanchflower]

Having two Irish parents is a 'tenuous link'?

I wouldn't have thought so. Who said that?

And Steve Heighway...or Peter Thomas?

2 players. With the Charlton team often only a minority were Irish-born.

Speaking of identity crisis, are you Irish, Northern Irish, British, or like EG, NB and the holy trinity, all three?

Obviously, I'm all three. The people with the identity crises are the ones who can't deal with the complexity or nuance of multiple identity and who can only think in binary terms (e.g. the guy who's 3/4 English and 1/4 Irish, can't handle it and decides he's "100% Irish").

[Blanchflower]

Hence my point aboput there also being more secind and third generation Irish available for the 26c then the 6c.

But they also had less need to go hunting for them when they had a bigger player pool than NI in the first place.

There weren't a lot of Granny rulers, out of the team against Italy in 94 I'm fairly certain Townsend was the only 'Granny ruler' with possibly Tommy Coyne (not sure there) who wouldn't have played had Quinn been fit. Keane, Staunton, Irwin, Bonner were all born in the 26 counties and McGrath reared here. Babb, Phelan, Houghton and Sheridan were all second generation.

Majority of the team born and brought up in Britain nonetheless.

[Blanchflower]

Where did I say that the people I know have 3 English grandparents?

We were talking about granny rulers, i.e. players whose only connection is a granny.