Eligibility proposal

[geysir]

Not always
but he couldn´t declare for Ireland unless he was a citizen.

Houghton and Aldridge were completly overlooked by the countries of their birth (football wise) and acquired Irish citizenry through satisfying parentage or grandparentage criteria.

[Blanchflower]

Not always
but he couldn´t declare for Ireland unless he was a citizen.

Houghton and Aldridge were completly overlooked by the countries of their birth (football wise) and acquired Irish citizenry through satisfying parentage or grandparentage criteria.

So could you/can you become an ROI citizen based on just one grandparent?

Obviously neither had played competitively for either Scotland or England at any level before joining Jack's merry band?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Was Houghton an ROI citizen? Aldridge?

They were I'm sure yeah. Yes they were of course UK born but Irish Citizens no less.

I'm beep-beeping on Triggs as well. I did a quick check and found no evidence of the "great-grandparent" urban myth I had in my mind when I mentioned him as a possible. As far as I know he qualified for either Irish side as he's grandparents hail from Counties Antrim and Limerick.

Blanch ... for a man chucking about terms like "infamous 1994 team" and "Jacks Merry band" to himself support a team with a Norwegian born defender and a naturalised German-South African keeper is an excercise is hauling a sly one in the glass house.

[Blanchflower]

They were I'm sure yeah. Yes they were of course UK born but Irish Citizens no less.

I'm beep-beeping on Triggs as well. I did a quick check and found no evidence of the "great-grandparent" urban myth I had in my mind when I mentioned him as a possible. As far as I know he qualified for either Irish side as he's grandparents hail from Counties Antrim and Limerick.

Who's Triggs?

And what was the story with McAteer?

[Cowboy]

Who's Triggs?

And what was the story with McAteer?

Triggs = Mc Ateer

[Blanchflower]

Blanch ... for a man chucking about terms like "infamous 1994 team" and "Jacks Merry band" to himself support a team with a Norwegian born defender and a naturalised German-South African keeper is an excercise is hauling a sly one in the glass house.

Not really. NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers.

[geysir]

So could you/can you become an ROI citizen based on just one grandparent?

I haven't heard of a ROI citizen.
I am an Irish citizen, my passport says Citizen of Ireland.
Our football team is Republic of Ireland

Yes, one grandparent qualifies for Irish citizenship. Not only that but you also satisfy FIFA criteria, having one grandparent is sufficient to establish enough connection to that country in order to satisfy FIFA's standards of eligibilty.

By FIFA´s standards of eligibilty, Darron Gibson is indistinguishable from a Monaghan born Irishman.

[lopez]

Out of interest, how many of the infamous '94 team against Italy would have qualified for the ROI team if today's rules applied?

All of them. They all qualified for an Irish passport. Even Cascarino, although his mother was adopted by an Irish family.

Not really. NI has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has. We've never had a situation like you did when the majority of players were English and Scottish, and the team was based around the granny-rulers.

All of Ireland's internationals prior to Gibson qualified by your much vaunted ancestry rule. The players mentioned by Lionel have no connection with the O6C or any part of Ireland. Your statement that NI 'has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has' is laughable. I'd suggest that this is down to not that many naturalised Britons with no connection with the O6C have been desperate enough is the reason for this.

[Gather round]

I think you need to quote some evidence for that claim, Blanche. My instinct is that we've used as many players growing up outside Ireland as they have, over the last 30 years say.

We have three in the current squad- Taylor, Capaldi and Paterson from the Scunthorpe problem.

[Blanchflower]

I haven't heard of a ROI citizen.
I am an Irish citizen, my passport says Citizen of Ireland.

I'm sure it does say citizen of "Ireland", but I'm sure you know that that only means ROI - Ireland is the whole island, which contains two countries.

Yes, one grandparent qualifies for Irish citizenship.

That can't be right because in a recent constitutional amendment, the law was changed to anyone born in Ireland with at least one ROI-citizen parent. If neither of your parents is an ROI citizen, but your grandparent was, then how could you get citizenship?

Not only that but you also satisfy FIFA criteria, having one grandparent is sufficient to establish enough connection to that country in order to satisfy FIFA's standards of eligibilty.

No - you need to be a citizen. Grandparentage alone isn't enough.

[Blanchflower]

All of them. They all qualified for an Irish passport. Even Cascarino, although his mother was adopted by an Irish family.

Thanks - but how does that square with the citizenship rules today ... see above. Presumably their parents were ROI citizens, although not born in ROI?

All of Ireland's internationals prior to Gibson qualified by your much vaunted ancestry rule.

I know. One wonders why the sudden change of policy has come about in recent times.

The players mentioned by Lionel have no connection with the O6C or any part of Ireland.

I know. That's why I was asking about them.

Your statement that NI 'has never availed of non-Irishmen to the extent that the South has' is laughable.

It's not. Name on NI team where the majority of players weren't from NI. In the Charlton era, ROI teams regularly had 4, 5, 6 and non-Irish players.

I'd suggest that this is down to not that many naturalised Britons with no connection with the O6C have been desperate enough is the reason for this.

There have been very few of these.

[lopez]

Thanks - but how does that square with the citizenship rules today ... see above. Presumably their parents were ROI citizens, although not born in ROI?

What recent change of ammendment? Whadaf*ck are you on about now?
The recent ammendment concerned the denial of everyone born in Ireland having automatic citizenship (primarily the children of illegal immigrants and asylum seekers).

Ireland recognises dual nationality. It also, according to DFA General information on Citizenship, the paragraph on 'Citizenship through descent' it states:

If either of your parents was an Irish citizen at the time of your birth, you are an Irish citizen, irrespective of your place of birth (unless one of the special conditions relating to birth outside Ireland applies; these are described below). If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born in Ireland, then you are an Irish citizen.

If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen, and can do so by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register maintained by the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs. You can do this by applying to your nearest Irish embassy or consular office.

If you are of the third or subsequent generation born abroad to an Irish citizen (in other words, one of your parents is an Irish citizen but none of your parents or grandparents was born in Ireland), you may be entitled to become an Irish citizen by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register; this depends on whether the parent through whom you derive Irish citizenship had himself or herself become an Irish citizen by being registered in the Foreign Births Register before you were born.

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=267

Basically all the 'granny rulers' would qualify through a parent being recognised as an Irish citizen through one of their parents being Irish - the granny.

I know. One wonders why the sudden change of policy has come about in recent times.

What changes of policy? The emigration pool is drying up, that's why there are fewer qualifying through a granny.

It's not. Name on NI team where the majority of players weren't from NI. In the Charlton era, ROI teams regularly had 4, 5, 6 and non-Irish players.

It had 11 Irish players as defined by qualification for Irish citizenship. Your boys born in Norway, Channel Islands, Osnabruck, Jamaica wouldn't qualify for NI citizenship if there were such a thing (Chris and Jimmy Nichol etc. I have no problem with, and I hope neither do you)

There have been very few of these.

Exactly!

[geysir]

That can't be right because in a recent constitutional amendment, the law was changed to anyone born in Ireland with at least one ROI-citizen parent. If neither of your parents is an ROI citizen, but your grandparent was, then how could you get citizenship?

I trust Lopez has put you right on that. If not just read the Irish Citizenship web page.

No - you need to be a citizen. Grandparentage alone isn't enough.

Sound a bit sore?
I am sure with a teeny weeny exercise in flexibility you could have deduced from the context of my reply that citizenship (if not spelled out) was assumed.

"Yes, one grandparent qualifies for Irish citizenship. Not only that but you also satisfy FIFA criteria, having one grandparent is sufficient to establish enough connection to that country in order to satisfy FIFA's standards of eligibilty."

Have you tried to explain the context for the use of the Annex Criteria to the NI fans?
There would appear to be widespread ignorance spreading from the IFA downwards, in all directions actually.

[lopez]

What days were those Lopez? How far do you go back?
Pre Tony Mancini days?

From the early 70´s for about 30 years onwards, the criteria for eligibility for changing national team was very loose before the present criteria made it stricter.
AFAIR the only thing barring a dual national changing (ca.1972 - 2003 ) was if he was already capped at senior level in a competitive game, (a qualification game).

I'd consider imposing such a restriction, once capped at youth level = tied for life, as draconian.
FIFA present criteria for changing national teams is a fair piece of legislation.

The criteria in the early 80s was 45 minutes. An Argentinian was seeking Spanish citizenship to be the third foreigner for Valencia (forgotten his name but can find out). He was allowed to be considered Spanish as he played less than 45 minutes in one match for Argentina. He was never picked for Spain, but in an era when only 2 foreigners were allowed to play for a Spanish club, his career was given a boost.

It's purely a side issue here. Just my opinion. You can only play for one country, so that decision should be taken at any age post schools teams. However, unlike Blanchflower, I have no intention of lobbying FIFA etc. to have this rule changed.

I think you need to quote some evidence for that claim, Blanche. My instinct is that we've used as many players growing up outside Ireland as they have, over the last 30 years say.

I'd be surprised if it were the same. Prior to the 'troubles' emigration from the 26C. I have no problem if there were 11 players who had just one grandparent from the 6C playing for NI. What I find laughable is the banging on about 'begging' when the NI team has players with no residential or ancestral or even political links with NI.

We have three in the current squad...Capaldi...

Sounds like that Steakknife bloke.

[Blanchflower]

What recent change of ammendment? Whadaf*ck are you on about now?
The recent ammendment concerned the denial of everyone born in Ireland having automatic citizenship (primarily the children of illegal immigrants and asylum seekers).

Yes, so if you weren't born in Ireland and neither were your parents, how do you qualify as a citizen?

If you were born outside Ireland to an Irish citizen who was himself or herself born outside Ireland, and any of your grandparents was born in Ireland, then you are entitled to become an Irish citizen, and can do so by having your birth registered in the Foreign Births Register maintained by the Irish Department of Foreign Affairs. You can do this by applying to your nearest Irish embassy or consular office.

This answers my question - so Houghton and Aldridge must have had their births registered in the "Foreign Births Register" (assuming this was the law at the time).

[Blanchflower]

I am sure with a teeny weeny exercise in flexibility you could have deduced from the context of my reply that citizenship (if not spelled out) was assumed.

No. You said: Not only that but you also satisfy FIFA criteria, having one grandparent is sufficient to establish enough connection to that country in order to satisfy FIFA's standards of eligibilty.

[geysir]

The longer you stay here the more you are morphing into a pedant clone of Ealing Green.
Is it a one personality fits all kind of thing?

[lopez]

Yes, so if you weren't born in Ireland and neither were your parents, how do you qualify as a citizen?


This answers my question - so Houghton and Aldridge must have had their births registered in the "Foreign Births Register" (assuming this was the law at the time).

At least one of Houghton's parents were from the 26C (Donegal). Aldridge, Townsend, Cascarino (is that it??) acquired a FBC as it was a grandparent who was Irish. The offspring of this grandparent (the player's parent) would have been deemed an Irish citizen automatically as a child of a person born in Ireland (32C). This procedure - claiming foreign born offspring as their own citizens - is something not confined to Ireland. I've heard of cases of citizens being forced into conscription in Italy and Turkey through this. Personally, I was never affected re Spain, as until 2003, Spain only regarded someone born abroad as Spanish if they had a Spanish born father, not mother.

To renounce citizenship entails the process of 'Declaration of Alienage'; this process is usually done when switching nationality to a country that doesn't recognise dual-nationality (e.g.: Spain, Germany). As I have never gone through this process, nor ever needed to, and as I was born before 1981 in Britain, I am regarded as a British citizen by the United Kingdom government, and therefore I have no entitlement to legal support from the Irish government if I am, for instance, arrested in Britain. In any legal business where the question arises, I always mention I have dual nationality - to say I haven't would be a lie - even though I've never had a British passport, nor intend to ever have one.

[Blanchflower]

At least one of Houghton's parents were from the 26C (Donegal).

So Houghton qualified through a parent and wasn't actually a granny-ruler.

As I have never gone through this process, nor ever needed to, and as I was born before 1981 in Britain, I am regarded as a British citizen by the United Kingdom government, and therefore I have no entitlement to legal support from the Irish government if I am, for instance, arrested in Britain.

Is that because of where you are arrested, i.e. the UK? Presumably if you were arrested elsewhere you could seek the assistance of either government? What if you were arrested in ROI - would you be entitled to seek assistance of the UK government?

In the arrested-in-UK scenario, can you not seek assistance from ROI government because of British rules or ROI rules?

[Blanchflower]

In any legal business where the question arises, I always mention I have dual nationality - to say I haven't would be a lie - even though I've never had a British passport, nor intend to ever have one.

Not having a passport has no bearing on your citizenship.

The majority of Americans don't have passports but that does not mean that they aren't US citizens.