Eligibility proposal

[janeymac]

Although there are some conditions, as a general principle, if you're legally resident in the UK, you may register in your local constituency to vote in Westminster or local elections, irrespective of whether you hold a British or Irish Passport (or both). Consequently, DG may vote in the UK, but not the Irish Republic, despite his holding an Irish Passport and Irish citizenship, but not (presumably) their British equivalent. And people say he's as "Irish" as anyone else born on th island...

The situation in the ROI is that DG (with his Irish passport) once registered on the Register of Electors can vote in all elections here.

If David Healey (resident in ROI, presumably with only a British passport) is registered on the ROI Register of Electors, cannot vote in ROI Presidential elections or in Referenda (and we have a fair few here, as with a written Irish Constitution, the only way it can be changed is by Referenda (unlike in the UK, where Westminster can pretty well make it up as they go along).

To be very clear on this, Gibson can vote in these 2 elections if resident & registered in the ROI that Healy cannot with only his British passport (also resident & registered).

If Gibson were resident in the ROI, we wouldn't be having this whole footballing eligibility debate in the first place! That's my whole point.

Healy can move to wherever he likes. And he if he could persuade that Government to grant him citizenship, after two years he can represent that country at football. So could Gibson. (Yes, I know they're already tied to NI and ROI, but you get my point).

Mary McAlease (born in Belfast and resident in NI at the time), and Dana (born in Derry and resident in the US at the time) were eligible to put themselves forward for the highest office in the ROI (the Presidency), I'm having difficulty swallowing the extra residential rule you want for DG to be able to represent ROI on the football pitch!

[janeymac]

One anthem, two anthems, it's the same principal.
But anthems are a reality (thankfully we don't have them in club football competitions like the CL). My suggestion is based on this: Take away anthems and replace them with some old sanitised dirge breeds resentment. Put in two representative anthems, side by side, and if people complain it's easier to see their protest as pure bigotry; 'What's the problem? You've still got your anthem. Can't the others have their anthem included, especially as they (hypothetically) make up more than half the team.'

Agree with you here ... most of the problems have arisen out of Ireland's Call being such a dirge. I haven't heard anyone from the Republic not acknowledge that the sentiment is correct in Ireland's Call being inclusive, but there is a certain resentment at the complaints of AnaB from some (not all by a long shot) vocal Ulster/NI supporters who apparently find it difficult to stand for AnaB. It does just smell of bigotry.

[Blanchflower]

If David Healey (resident in ROI, presumably with only a British passport) is registered on the ROI Register of Electors, cannot vote in ROI Presidential elections or in Referenda (and we have a fair few here, as with a written Irish Constitution, the only way it can be changed is by Referenda (unlike in the UK, where Westminster can pretty well make it up as they go along).

To be very clear on this, Gibson can vote in these 2 elections if resident & registered in the ROI that Healy cannot with only his British passport (also resident & registered).

You need to have a passport to vote in a Southern election?

Weird rules down there. Some kind of revenue-raising idea from the Government to force everyone to buy a passport? Do non-passport-holders not agitate against their disenfranchisement?

[janeymac]

You need to have a passport to vote in a Southern election?

Weird rules down there. Some kind of revenue-raising idea from the Government to force everyone to buy a passport? Do non-passport-holders not agitate against their disenfranchisement?

Don't be silly, a passport is used for identification when putting yourself onto the Register of Electors - you are then sent a Voting Card which is what you have to produce when you present yourself at the polling booths. As I was born in the ROI (many years ago) and I don't think I had a passport at the time, I produced a birth cert when registering. Non residents eligible for a Irish citizenship usually do so by claiming an Irish passport.

[Blanchflower]

Don't be silly, a passport is used for identification when putting yourself onto the Register of Electors - you are then sent a Voting Card which is what you have to produce when you present yourself at the polling booths. As I was born in the ROI (many years ago) and I don't think I had a passport at the time, I produced a birth cert when registering. Non residents eligible for a Irish citizenship usually do so by claiming an Irish passport.

So you don't need a passport (birth certificate will do) - hence your reference to passports was wrong.

[youngirish]

For the rugby I reckon the best solution is to get Norman Cooke to bring his decks over to Lansdowne road and to do a mix containing samples from both Amhrán na bhFiann and the Sash laid on top of a heavy dance beat. That would keep everyone happy on both sides of the political divide, particularly the pill heads.

[geysir]

Filling out a pdf form is enough to get on the register to vote, the condition is that you are resident when applying Sept 1 deadline for inclusion the following year.
You just have to state your citizenship/saoránacht

FIFA established the annex criteria for those who are acquiring citizenship.
FIFA are quite content that being entitled to be a citizen at birth is enough connection with that country without any extra conditions.

It makes sense to me, an Irish Citizen born in the North is on the scale of things more connected to the Republic than most lads with one grandparent born away from the Island.
N I nationals have a choice, that choice is recognized by the Bunreacht na hEireann and the GFA.
Hard to minimize the connection to the Republic as less that the minimum standard of the Annex criteria, one grandparent.

[janeymac]

So you don't need a passport (birth certificate will do) - hence your reference to passports was wrong.

Well, if you want to be pedantic I was wrong in saying you needed a passport. Happy now?

You need a birth cert (among other things) to get a passport which is much handier than a birth cert as it actually has a photo id on it.

[ifk101]

For the rugby I reckon the best solution is to get Norman Cooke to bring his decks over to Lansdowne road and to do a mix containing samples from both Amhrán na bhFiann and the Sash laid on top of a heavy dance beat. That would keep everyone happy on both sides of the political divide, particularly the pill heads.

There'll always be something somebody will whinge about ....

[janeymac]

It makes sense to me, an Irish Citizen born in the North is on the scale of things more connected to the Republic than most lads with one grandparent born away from the Island.
N I nationals have a choice, that choice is recognized by the Bunreacht na hEireann and the GFA.
Hard to minimize the connection to the Republic as less that the minimum standard of the Annex criteria, one grandparent.

Unionists do as well. I know a few people who would come from the unionist community who exercise their right to dual citizenship!

[Blanchflower]

Well, if you want to be pedantic I was wrong in saying you needed a passport. Happy now?

You need a birth cert (among other things) to get a passport which is much handier than a birth cert as it actually has a photo id on it.

So a Southern-resident David Healy would not need a Southern passport in order to vote, contrary to what you said earlier?

[ifk101]

So a Southern-resident David Healy would not need a Southern passport in order to vote, contrary to what you said earlier?

Like I told you before there's no south or southern. Have a bit of manners.

[Blanchflower]

FIFA established the annex criteria for those who are acquiring citizenship.
FIFA are quite content that being entitled to be a citizen at birth is enough connection with that country without any extra conditions.

Currently, but the IFA should be pushing to change it to stop NI (and possibly other countries) being disadvantaged by the extra-territorial laws of other countries.

It makes sense to me, an Irish Citizen born in the North is on the scale of things more connected to the Republic than most lads with one grandparent born away from the Island.

You're confusing "the Island" with the Republic. NI is not part of the Republic. So lads who are citizens with one grandparent born in the Republic have more connection than you as a citizen with no grandparents born there.

[janeymac]

So a Southern-resident David Healy would not need a Southern passport in order to vote, contrary to what you said earlier?

Well, if he considers himself to be British (by holding a British passport and not exercising his right to an Irish passport*) why would he want to vote in ROI Presidential elections / or effect change in Bunreacht na hÉireann that require Irish citizenship? If I was living in the UK and I had an option to vote for a Head of State (Queen's job), I don't think I'd be bothered to vote.

*A passport is just official documentation of proving your identity (and nationality).

Reference to who can vote in Presidential election - same requirement for Referenda.

"The President is formally elected by the people once every seven years, except in the event of premature vacancy, when an election must be held within sixty days.[1] The President is directly elected by secret ballot under the Alternative Vote form of the Single Transferable Vote system.[2] While both Irish and UK citizens resident in the state may vote in elections to Dáil Éireann (the lower house of parliament), only Irish citizens, who must be at least eighteen years of age, may vote in the election of the President. The presidency is open to all citizens of the state who are at least 35.[3]"


All you need to know about Irish citizenship http://search.gov.ie/cached/?url=htt...e/june2004.pdf

[geysir]

Currently, but the IFA should be pushing to change it to stop NI (and possibly other countries) being disadvantaged by the extra-territorial laws of other countries.


You're confusing "the Island" with the Republic. NI is not part of the Republic. So lads who are citizens with one grandparent born in the Republic have more connection than you as a citizen with no grandparents born there.

I have no confusion over political boundaries.
Don´t you get it yet?
Political boundaries do not affect the Irish citizenship gaurenteed to Island born according to all constitutions north and south.
Distant bloodline has priority if you think like a Royalist.
A political division has not diluted the strength of Nationalist connection to the Republic.
FIFA totally agree that eligibility criteria is satisfied with the strength and quality of that connection.
Northern Nationalists availing of that citizenship right (for non football related reasons) in large numbers is enough practical proof of the connection to the Republic, that is evidently clear to all except Unionist inclined in the North.

FIFA´s alarm bells would have been ringing a long time ago if they had any doubt or if they thought the FAI was gaining advantage by exploiting a technicality in the Statutes.

[Blanchflower]

Well, if he considers himself to be British (by holding a British passport and not exercising his right to an Irish passport*) why would he want to vote in ROI Presidential elections / or effect change in Bunreacht na hÉireann that require Irish citizenship?

No idea ... it was you who introduced the idea!

If I was living in the UK and I had an option to vote for a Head of State (Queen's job), I don't think I'd be bothered to vote.

*A passport is just official documentation of proving your identity (and nationality).

I know.

While both Irish and UK citizens resident in the state may vote in elections to Dáil Éireann (the lower house of parliament), only Irish citizens, who must be at least eighteen years of age, may vote in the election of the President. "

Says nothing about needing a passport.

[lopez]

Nonsense. You would have to be in the South. You don't get to vote in ROI elections in the North.

You can have the vote in Irish elections in Donegal.

I never said living abroad prevented anyone from playing for their country. I just pointed out that you accept that citizenship alone is not enough to enjoy all citizenship rights - therefore it's not much of a leap to accept that it might not be enough on its own (i.e. without residence, without birth, without parentage, without grandparentage) to get to play for the ROI team.

It might not be enough to enjoy voting rights outside the country, but it's enough to play for the country, either inside or outside. WIth the exception of players granted citizenship purely on playing ability, no non citizen is exempt from playing for their country. That's what we're discussing here, no?

So you don't need a passport (birth certificate will do) - hence your reference to passports was wrong.

Are you a wind up merchant or just plain stoopid? As proof, passports (or other form of citizenship) for Irish citizens born outside the 26C. Birth certificate for those born within.

[Blanchflower]

I have no confusion over political boundaries.

Then how come you conflated "the Island" with the Republic? You may have citizenship by living in "the Island", but someone with citizenship from outside the island (and therefore outside the state), but who has a grandparent born in the state, has more of a connection than you do (also from outside the state) with no grandparents born in the state.

Political boundaries do not affect the Irish citizenship gaurenteed to Island born according to all constitutions north and south.

I know. Hence the problems we're discussing with NI players.

FIFA totally agree that eligibility criteria is satisfied with the strength and quality of that connection.

Well, they agree it is satisfied simply by virtue of citizenship. It's unlikely that they were moved by the "strength" and "quality" of "northern nationalist feelings!

[Blanchflower]

It might not be enough to enjoy voting rights outside the country, but it's enough to play for the country, either inside or outside.

Yes, we know that, thanks.

The discussion is about the possibility of new rules which might mean it is no longer enough.

WIth the exception of players granted citizenship purely on playing ability, no non citizen is exempt from playing for their country.

Not so. Someone granted citizenship for reasons other than playing ability, and without the necessary connections, would also be ineligible.

Someone with dual nationality who has already played for another country is also ineligible.

As proof, passports (or other form of citizenship) for Irish citizens born outside the 26C. Birth certificate for those born within.

Odd that people born in NI with a supposed "birthright" of citizenship can't vote without producing a passport.

[janeymac]

Then how come you conflated "the Island" with the Republic? You may have citizenship by living in "the Island", but someone with citizenship from outside the island (and therefore outside the state), but who has a grandparent born in the state, has more of a connection than you do (also from outside the state) with no grandparents born in the state.

I know. Hence the problems we're discussing with NI players.

Well, they agree it is satisfied simply by virtue of citizenship. It's unlikely that they were moved by the "strength" and "quality" of "northern nationalist feelings!

Below is what the Constitution of the ROI says about citizenship. The Constitution is a very powerful document, it can't be changed without a referendum, anything in it has the approval of a majority of all those eligible to vote in the ROI. So, what you have here are ROI voters saying that we recognise that anyone born on the island of Ireland is entitled to Irish citizenship automatically and have the protection, rights and privileges as anyone born in the ROI.

As you will see, this change to the Constitution was effected in 1999 when Darron Gibson was about 10! I'm sure the legal eagles in FIFA would have noticed that.

What the Constitution says
There are two articles of the Constitution which deal with
citizenship. Article 2 which became part of the Constitution on
2 December 1999 as a result of the Good Friday agreement (the
Northern Ireland peace agreement or the Belfast Agreement)
states:

“It is the entitlement and birthright of every person born in the island of
Ireland, which includes its islands and seas, to be part of the Irish nation.
That is also the entitlement of all persons otherwise qualified in
accordance with law to be citizens of Ireland. Furthermore, the Irish
nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living
abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage.”

The effect of this is that every person born on the island of Ireland is
entitled to be an Irish citizen and, as this is a constitutional right, it
cannot be changed by law. Before 2 December 1999, everyone born in
Ireland did have the right to be an Irish citizen but the right arose from
legislation and not from the Constitution.

FIFA propably had no problem figuring this one out - i.e., IFA is referred to as a British Association and well, the FAI is known as an Irish Association.