Eligibility proposal

[Cowboy]

I note your ongoing inability to engage in discussion and your childish attempts to disengage from discussion. Such attempts merely serve to suggest that it is you who doesn't understand the arguments, rather than those with whom you are unable to argue.

There are none so blind as those who will not see

[EalingGreen]

I'd rather have both the Irish flag and NI flag flown at Irish rugby or cricket matches rather than any unofficial flag. Give me the Sash (GSTQ is the English anthem) and the Soldier's Song at rugby than the current dirge they play. And if you think it's ridiculous, how many anthems did South Africa play during the recent rugby World Cup? Three? Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika and the national anthem of the apartheid regime Die Stem in Afrikaans and English. Didn't stop them winning the competition. I'd be happy for the same arangement if there was an all-Ireland team without an all-Ireland state.

I suppose that has a certain consistency, except that your actual choice of songs is flawed. If the SS is going to represent the Irish Republic, then its NI equivalent must be GSTQ. Personally, I think it inappropriate to have either song played, since these unnecessarily introduce a politically Nationalistic element which is neither helpful nor welcome.

As for your suggestion of the Sash, presumably in order to "represent" NI, I find it frankly offensive that I should be represented by an Orange Song. I am not an Orangemen, never have been or never will be, in keeping with the vast majority of my fellow countrymen.

As for your S.African analogy, afaik, they only play one anthem, the country's official anthem. (Albeit that that anthem incorporates Die Stem as a part of it).

And for the Ireland team, there's far too much fecking about with anthems, imo. They should just play the one anthem (Irelands Call), at full speed, so as we can get it and the 80 minutes blundering out of the way as quickly as possible, before repairing to the pub for the serious business of the day.

[Blanchflower]

There are none so blind as those who will not see

If you can't/won't engage in discussion, that's fair enough, but the empty responses won't disguise the fact.

Should you choose to respond substantially to any points I have made, I will reciprocate. Otherwise, it would be better if you just stayed out of the discussion and let those who wish to continue to do so.

[EalingGreen]

Originally Posted by EalingGreen
"Can I choose one of the Scandinavian Associations, then?"

No because you are not entitled to citizenship by birth of any of the Scandinavian countries

It should have been patently obvious that that was never a serious suggestion.

Do you care to respond to the rest of my post, which was entirely serious?

[Cowboy]

As for your suggestion of the Sash, presumably in order to "represent" NI, I find it frankly offensive that I should be represented by an Orange Song. I am not an Orangemen, never have been or never will be, in keeping with the vast majority of my fellow countrymen.

I find Ireland's call to be offensive in so far as its absolute rubbish. I'm with Lopez in so far as two anthems should be played. Tell me are there any songs/anthems that you would consider representative of NI? OT I know but I'm curious nonetheless

[Cowboy]

Originally Posted by EalingGreen
"Can I choose one of the Scandinavian Associations, then?"
It should have been patently obvious that that was never a serious suggestion.

Do you care to respond to the rest of my post, which was entirely serious?

I'm afraid it was not obvious to me. I can only respond by saying that as an Irish citizen I believe he is eligible for selection and therefore does have a connection with the FAI, I'm re stating my position so forgive me for not responding directly to the rest of your post.

[EalingGreen]

None of these apply to people born outside the state with Irish citizenship and an ancestral connection with the 26C.

In fact none of this applies if you leave the state, despite being born there. So what is your point here?

My point is that supporters of DG's right to represent the FAI team primarily do so because of his Nationality, it being the same Nationality as that of any other Irish person from e.g. Cork or Galway. Yet that Nationality is granted by a Government which does not also grant him the same rights (e.g vote), or demand the same responsibilities (e.g. tax) as someone from Cork or Galway. Therefore, in political/constitutional terms, his "Irishness" is NOT the same as theirs.

Which is another reason why I consider that eligibility for international football should rest primarily on footballing jurisdiction. That is, you should represent the Association in whose territory you were born, unless you have additional eligibility for another Association by virtue of residency or a parent/grandparent who was born within that other jurisdiction.

That way, you also resolve equitably the situation of "people born outside the state with Irish citizenship and an ancestral connection with the 26C", plus those who "leave the state".

As I've consistently posted, this should be about football, not politics.

And I'm the one who gets accused of political bigotry and all sorts...

[EalingGreen]

I find Ireland's call to be offensive in so far as its absolute rubbish. I'm with Lopez in so far as two anthems should be played. Tell me are there any songs/anthems that you would consider representative of NI? OT I know but I'm curious nonetheless

For the Ireland rugby team, the principle should be "One Island, One Team, One Anthem". Otherwise, to have more than one anthem would only emphasise differences, which does nothing for team spirit and unity (as well as needlessly taking up time)

The only possible exception which I might make to this would be a system whereby when Ireland are playing games at home (i.e. on the island), they might play a tune to represent the home Province. I have no idea what Leinster, Munster and Connaught would choose, but anything would be acceptable to me so long as it were non-political. For Ulster, I'd be happy with Danny Boy (but I'm not especially fussed). This would also solve the Ulster/NI problem we saw recently at Ravenhill, where the IRFU behaved disgracefully and offensively in its efforts to affording NI the coutesy of its own anthem (GSTQ) in exactly the same way as they demand when playing home games in the Irish Republic with the Soldiers Song.

And for away games, whilst I have no great fondness for "Ireland's Call", if I can tolerate GSTQ at NI football matches and the SS at Ireland rugby matches in Lansdowne, then IC is hardly too much of a problem for anyone - just speed the feckin thing up, I say!

[EalingGreen]

I'm afraid it was not obvious to me. I can only respond by saying that as an Irish citizen I believe he is eligible for selection and therefore does have a connection with the FAI, I'm re stating my position so forgive me for not responding directly to the rest of your post.

So just what was his connection with the FAI at the point they first selected him? I can see his connection (politically speaking, that is) with the Irish Republic, but had he ever been coached by an FAI team before his debut? Had he ever played for an FAI team, or paid a membership or subscription to them? Had he ever had any chance to vote or influence the FAI's policies? Had he ever lived within the territorial jurisdiction of the FAI? Or had a parent or grandparent who had been born within the FAI's jurisdiction?

You cannot conflate a political concept (Citizenship) with a footballing concept (eligibility), even if there is a close overlap, just because it happens to suit. Otherwise, FIFA would never have more Members than the United Nations.

Which is why I keep coming back to my original point: Playing for, or supporting, the NI football team does not make anyone any "more British" or "less Irish", it merely denotes that the person is Northern Irish. Otherwise, if this is not the case, does anyone want to tell e.g. Gerry Taggart that he's not really Irish, or (I dunno), Alan McDonald that he's not really British?

[janeymac]

My point is that supporters of DG's right to represent the FAI team primarily do so because of his Nationality, it being the same Nationality as that of any other Irish person from e.g. Cork or Galway. Yet that Nationality is granted by a Government which does not also grant him the same rights (e.g vote), or demand the same responsibilities (e.g. tax) as someone from Cork or Galway. Therefore, in political/constitutional terms, his "Irishness" is NOT the same as theirs.

Does David Healy (or non-residents) vote in Northern Ireland elections or pay tax in NI?

If Darren Gibson was resident (and registered himself) in a ROI electoral constituency for a General Election he would be able to vote because he has full Irish citizenship. People resident in Ireland without citizenship cannot vote in a General Election, they can however vote (if registered) in local elections, Euro elections. I think there are moves afoot for postal votes for non-resident Irish passport holders in the Presidential election (workable as you don't vote for candidates in a particular electoral constitutency).

We'd tax anyone resident here in the Republic and probably be all for taxing UK residents as well!

[EalingGreen]

Ireland's Call HAS replaced our national anthem in away games. It makes me so angry that I actually cheered Argentina in that last match.

At least that allows you to support one half-decent international sports team, anyhow.

(Though I'm sure the Irish Rugby team would be devastated if they knew they'd lost the support of people of your calibre and integrity...)

[EalingGreen]

Does David Healy (or non-residents) vote in Northern Ireland elections or pay tax in NI?

If Darren Gibson was resident (and registered himself) in a ROI electoral constituency for a General Election he would be able to vote because he has full Irish citizenship. People resident in Ireland without citizenship cannot vote in a General Election, they can however vote (if registered) in local elections, Euro elections. I think there are moves afoot for postal votes for non-resident Irish passport holders in the Presidential election (workable as you don't vote for candidates in a particular electoral constitutency).

We'd tax anyone resident here in the Republic and probably be all for taxing UK residents as well!

When Healy was resident in NI, or if he moved back to NI post-retirement, he would be allowed to vote in NI elections, and be responsible to pay his taxes etc. Moreover, whether living in NI or England, he is equally entitled to vote in elections to Westminster and responsible to pay taxes to the same Revenue in Whitehall. Exactly the same applies to Darron Gibson, too!

Whereas, DH or DG would only be entitled to vote in Dail or local elections, or be liable to pay tax etc, during the time either actually lived in the 26 counties. That is, they could not register in an ROI electoral constituency if they had never lived in the Republic.

Consequently, Gibson's "Britishness" - however unwelcome - actually grants more rights and imposes more responsibilities on him, in practical terms, than his "Irishness" does!

It also entitles him to play for a half-decent international football team - had he only the wit to know it!

[janeymac]

When Healy was resident in NI, or if he moved back to NI post-retirement, he would be allowed to vote in NI elections, and be responsible to pay his taxes etc. Moreover, whether living in NI or England, he is equally entitled to vote in elections to Westminster and responsible to pay taxes to the same Revenue in Whitehall. Exactly the same applies to Darron Gibson, too!

Can Irish (ROI) passport holders vote in all British elections (note, I know you don't vote for a Head of State)

Whereas, DH or DG would only be entitled to vote in Dail or local elections, or be liable to pay tax etc, during the time either actually lived in the 26 counties. That is, they could not register in an ROI electoral constituency if they had never lived in the Republic.

Consequently, Gibson's "Britishness" - however unwelcome - actually grants more rights and imposes more responsibilities on him, in practical terms, than his "Irishness" does!

Gibson can vote in Irish general elections if resident in ROI. Just the same as me as a ROI resident. I can't vote in ROI elections if I'm non-resident - just like Gibson.

If Healy intends retiring to Donegal and wants to vote in General Elections, he better get an Irish passport (and register). He will also be paying tax to Dublin. He better keep a pad in Belfast if he wants to vote in the NI ones!

It also entitles him to play for a half-decent international football team - had he only the wit to know it!

He has good cop on that lad, he realised that the competition was too great in NI's midfield and took the opportunity to follow in the footsteps of his boyhood hero, by playing in the same position as him for his club and country

[EalingGreen]

Can Irish (ROI) passport holders vote in all British elections (note, I know you don't vote for a Head of State)

Although there are some conditions, as a general principle, if you're legally resident in the UK, you may register in your local constituency to vote in Westminster or local elections, irrespective of whether you hold a British or Irish Passport (or both). Consequently, DG may vote in the UK, but not the Irish Republic, despite his holding an Irish Passport and Irish citizenship, but not (presumably) their British equivalent. And people say he's as "Irish" as anyone else born on th island...

Gibson can vote in Irish general elections if resident in ROI. Just the same as me as a ROI resident.

If Gibson were resident in the ROI, we wouldn't be having this whole footballing eligibility debate in the first place! That's my whole point.

If Healy intends retiring to Donegal and wants to vote in General Elections, he better get an Irish passport (and register).

Healy can move to wherever he likes. And he if he could persuade that Government to grant him citizenship, after two years he can represent that country at football. So could Gibson. (Yes, I know they're already tied to NI and ROI, but you get my point).

He [Gibson] has good cop on that lad, he realised that the competition was too great in NI's midfield and took the opportunity to follow in the footsteps of his boyhood hero, by playing in the same position as him for his club and country

Presumably his loan to Wolves is following in the footsteps of another boyhood hero, Paul Butler?

(But you're right about the competition in the NI midfield - if we have our first choice of Gillespie, Davis, Johnson and Brunt fit, Gibson would have to be content with a place on the bench. At best.)

[Not Brazil]

[QUOTE=Blanchflower;813866
It was reported that anti-Semitic chants and shouts were made from the crowd. I accept that the reports may not be accurate. .[/QUOTE]

Reported on this very site - by fervent ROI fans who were "ashamed to be Irish".

I don't suppose that Drumcondra would be suggesting for one minute that those fans were telling lies?

[Drumcondra 69er]

Although there are some conditions, as a general principle, if you're legally resident in the UK, you may register in your local constituency to vote in Westminster or local elections, irrespective of whether you hold a British or Irish Passport (or both). Consequently, DG may vote in the UK, but not the Irish Republic, despite his holding an Irish Passport and Irish citizenship, but not (presumably) their British equivalent. And people say he's as "Irish" as anyone else born on th island...

Vote early and vote often, eh?

Besides anything else, any other Irish footballer plying their trade in the UK is also entitled to vote. And if Gibson was to register in the ROI he'd have they vote here too, what's your point?

Healy wouldn't need an Irish passport either if he retired here, a UK passport entitles you to vote once you're resident in reciprocation for an Irish passport enabling you to vote while resident in the UK.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Reported on this very site - by fervent ROI fans who were "ashamed to be Irish".

I don't suppose that Drumcondra would be suggesting for one minute that those fans were telling lies?

Can only comment on what I saw and heard on the South Terrace. Anyone who said they were 'ashamed to be Irish' for any reason other then the capitulation from a two goal lead that day needs to get out more imo.

[lopez]

I am sure that most of it was. That, however, does not mean that all of it was..

We know that not all of it was 'politcial' as we have eye witness accounts of 'gangs' doing nazi salutes. This was outside the ground. I'm not getting into the 'they weren't Irish fans' rubbish, but the visit of Israel/Zionist Occupied Palestine is likely to attract certain elements of society with ulterior motives. Anti-Semitism (I'm talking what is known as neo-nazism rather than pro Palestinian lefties) in Ireland is compartively small compared with other parts of Europe - it had in the nineties three Jews elected TDs - but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. As Not Brazil states, this was debated by Irish fans - I think the media didn't report it, although I may be wrong.

see http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=25941&highlight=israel

I'm afraid I've lost track of how this argument arose and don't really have the patience to read back. All I know for sure is that some on these boards have attempted to play down sectarian booing by ROI fans on grounds of "it wasn't against our own players"..

Firstly I think that sectarianism is a misnomer,although the greater picture is full of sectarianism. The Danish player was not booed because he was a Protestant. Secondly he was an opponent. You think that it's the same as booing Neil Lennon. If you do, then that's fine. It shows that you really don't have a grasp on the difference in their significance.

No, on both counts. Why do you ask?

Simple. You are banging on about this Danish player and the 'sectarian' abuse he got. Me thinks it's because you support Rangers. However, if you have never supported them, it's clearly because you are looking for any rod to beat our back to take the heat off the booing of Neil Lennon. Go ahead.

I should have thought it was plain.

If you accept that citizenship alone doesn't entitle you to many of the "rights" and privileges of citizenship (e.g. voting, receiving public services, paying taxes, etc.), and many of these require birth and/or residence, then surely you could accept a situation whereby citizenship alone doesn't entitle you to play for the football team.

No I don't. My citizenship is the same as my father - who was born in Ireland - with the only one exception: My children must have a foreign birth's certificate unless their other parent is Irish born. She is also Irish born outside of Ireland, but unlike me, has lived in Ireland. My children are still entitled to the same rights and privilages (or lack of them) as me and my father. He couldn't vote in Irish elections in Britain; he could in Ireland. So could I and so too can my children. We are entitled to the same rights as him in Ireland. The same applies to anyone born in the 6C with irish citizenship.Living abroad doesn't prevent anyone playing for their country, so I think you' re just fishing. You've got FA here on this subject.

I suppose that has a certain consistency, except that your actual choice of songs is flawed. If the SS is going to represent the Irish Republic, then its NI equivalent must be GSTQ.

Great for the British Lions. Totally unaceptable here. (Our citzenship laws do not extend to those living on what you consider 'the mainland.')

IPersonally, I think it inappropriate to have either song played, since these unnecessarily introduce a politically Nationalistic element which is neither helpful nor welcome.

The team represents two politcal entities as well as two nationalities. Our oponents have anthems. It's ridiculous that we have something that Father Ted would sing for the Eurovision Song Contest instead.

I
As for your suggestion of the Sash, presumably in order to "represent" NI, I find it frankly offensive that I should be represented by an Orange Song. I am not an Orangemen, never have been or never will be, in keeping with the vast majority of my fellow countrymen.

Save the mock offence. Have you ever been a Queen either? Same argument for the SS. If anyhing you might have sympahy for your nationalist neighbours at WP. I welcome another suggestion. Alternative Ulster? In the meantime, at least the Sash has support amongst a number of NI fans, and I know the words, and only only a bigot or a supersensitive PCer would be offended wth it beside the SS as anthems for the Irish rugby team. The South Africans have put up with the apartheid regime anthem; that must have taken a lot more guts than having the Sash played in Dublin.

I
As for your S.African analogy, afaik, they only play one anthem, the country's official anthem. (Albeit that that anthem incorporates Die Stem as a part of it).

One anthem, two anthems, it's the same principal.

I
And for the Ireland team, there's far too much fecking about with anthems, imo. They should just play the one anthem (Irelands Call), at full speed, so as we can get it and the 80 minutes blundering out of the way as quickly as possible, before repairing to the pub for the serious business of the day.

But anthems are a reality (thankfully we don't have them in club football competitions like the CL). My suggestion is based on this: Take away anthems and replace them with some old sanitised dirge breeds resentment. Put in two representative anthems, side by side, and if people complain it's easier to see their protest as pure bigotry; 'What's the problem? You've still got your anthem. Can't the others have their anthem included, especially as they (hypothetically) make up more than half the team.'

[lopez]

Does David Healy (or non-residents) vote in Northern Ireland elections or pay tax in NI?

If Darren Gibson was resident (and registered himself) in a ROI electoral constituency for a General Election he would be able to vote because he has full Irish citizenship. People resident in Ireland without citizenship cannot vote in a General Election, they can however vote (if registered) in local elections, Euro elections. I think there are moves afoot for postal votes for non-resident Irish passport holders in the Presidential election (workable as you don't vote for candidates in a particular electoral constitutency).

We'd tax anyone resident here in the Republic and probably be all for taxing UK residents as well!

Ireland is quite unique in that former residents are no longer allowed to vote in Irish elections. I'm sure you had the same thing a couple of weeks in Ireland, but here in London there were a number of makeshift polling stations for Poles to vote in their election. Imagine the number of polling booths for the Irish for Berties first election win.

The Irish are allowed the same rights as the British, even though they are not a part of the commonwealth. Residence, all elections, social security etc. The only exceptions are probably becoming MPs (not entirely sure) and the job of consort/spouse to the head of state is not open to most Irish people on account of their religion. That great Papist state may have its faults, but it's had two head of state (out of eight) that were Protestants.

[Blanchflower]

My children are still entitled to the same rights and privilages (or lack of them) as me and my father. He couldn't vote in Irish elections in Britain; he could in Ireland. So could I and so too can my children. We are entitled to the same rights as him in Ireland.

Nonsense. You would have to be in the South. You don't get to vote in ROI elections in the North.

The same applies to anyone born in the 6C with irish citizenship.Living abroad doesn't prevent anyone playing for their country, so I think you' re just fishing. You've got FA here on this subject.

I never said living abroad prevented anyone from playing for their country. I just pointed out that you accept that citizenship alone is not enough to enjoy all citizenship rights - therefore it's not much of a leap to accept that it might not be enough on its own (i.e. without residence, without birth, without parentage, without grandparentage) to get to play for the ROI team.