Eligibility proposal

[Blanchflower]

I am fluent in Irish, play camogie, support my local football team, even did Irish dancing......am I any more Irish than Blanchflower and co? No, not at all. None of those things affect whether you are Irish are not. They are aspects of our past/culture people can choose to relate with and respect.

At last, a fellow Irishman who is happy to accept and respect other Irishmen without first establishing whether they meet "the right criteria".

Refreshing (in the context of this forum) to read your views, micls.

[micls]

At last, a fellow Irishman who is happy to accept and respect other Irishmen without first establishing whether they meet "the right criteria".

Refreshing (in the context of this forum) to read your views, micls.

Irishwoman.....that clears it up

[youngirish]

At last, a fellow Irishman who is happy to accept and respect other Irishmen without first establishing whether they meet "the right criteria".

Refreshing (in the context of this forum) to read your views, micls.

In fairness Blanchflower I think many on this forum would agree with her views but we've all abandoned this particular thread long ago for the sake of sanity.

[Dodge]

At last, a fellow Irishman who is happy to accept and respect other Irishmen without first establishing whether they meet "the right criteria".

Refreshing (in the context of this forum) to read your views, micls.

Now thats chauvinism...

[Blanchflower]

Irishwoman.....that clears it up

Oops, many apologies!

[Blanchflower]

In fairness Blanchflower I think many on this forum would agree with her views but we've all abandoned this particular thread long ago for the sake of sanity.

Fair enough. I'm glad if that's the case.

[shaneker]

So... eligibility,eh?

[Drumcondra 69er]

My goodness. Why is it unbelievable and why is it "a new low"?


What do you mean? I don't think anyone has mentioned anything to me about being able to speak Irish.


And? So what? My question remains valid - would it be helpful to an American or Australian to be able to recognise Native American or Aboriginal languages?


Neither - I'm just curious about the implied point that it is difficult for an English-speaker to explain that they are not English and that being able to speak Irish (in the case of an Irish person) is helpful in explaining that one is not English. In my experience, I have never had such difficulty, hence my curiosity.

Since Australians and Americans, by and large, also speak English but are not English, I'm asking if janeymac thinks it would be helpful for them to be able to speak (sorry, recognise) Aboriginal or Native American languages.


Sadly, some racists might never accept them as English, no matter how many generations they've been resident but I don't think that, generally speaking, there would be any difficulty in them being accepted as English. Indeed, I think it would be taken for granted.

Why do you ask, because I don't see how this is relevant - Janeymac was talking about people who aren't English and don't want to be thought of as English.

Comparing the Aboriginal and Native American scenarios where the indigenous populations we pretty much wiped out with the situation in Ireland where the majority of the population of the island still feel that the language is an important cultural reference point is frankly laughable as you well know. Despite our invaders best efforts we're still thriving.

Your post as to whether it would be of any help to an American or Australian person to speak an Aboriginal or Native American language would imply that you thought Janeymac was saying it would be a help for you to speak Irish. this obviously wasn't the case. As a matter of interest Aboriginal culture is now finally being acknowledged in Australia as the country comes to terms with the more shameful aspects of it's colonial past.

And I'd argue that a huge amount of people in the UK would have major issues and indeed currently do with people coming there and refusing to learn the language. It may not be right but I think it's likely.The point is that where a language exists (and within Ireland that language is Irish whether you want to deny it or not) it is an important cultural reference point for that country. The fact that major steps have been made in recognising this North of the border in recent years shows this.

Fact also is that it was the language spoken by the vast majority of the population of the island of Ireland for thousands of years before being nearly stamped out in the 18th/19th century and therefore it's cultural link can't simply be ignored or looked upon as a footnote. To be so offended that someone asking your thoughts on it (as an Irishman) seems repugnant to you beggars belief.

[Blanchflower]

Comparing the Aboriginal and Native American scenarios where the indigenous populations we pretty much wiped out with the situation in Ireland where the majority of the population of the island still feel that the language is an important cultural reference point is frankly laughable as you well know. .

It's not laughable in the least in the context of the comparison being made, i.e. English-speakers who are not English from Ireland and from Australia and/or America and.

Your post as to whether it would be of any help to an American or Australian person to speak an Aboriginal or Native American language would imply that you thought Janeymac was saying it would be a help for you to speak Irish. this obviously wasn't the case.

Well, that wasn't what I said nor what I implied.

As a matter of interest Aboriginal culture is now finally being acknowledged in Australia as the country comes to terms with the more shameful aspects of it's colonial past.

And I should hope so, too.

And I'd argue that a huge amount of people in the UK would have major issues and indeed currently do with people coming there and refusing to learn the language. It may not be right but I think it's likely.

I wouldn't disagree. What point are you trying to make?

The point is that where a language exists (and within Ireland that language is Irish whether you want to deny it or not) it is an important cultural reference point for that country. The fact that major steps have been made in recognising this North of the border in recent years shows this.

Why would I want to deny that Irish is a language that exists in Ireland?
When did I ever say that it wasn't an important cultural reference point? What on earth point are you trying to make?

Fact also is that it was the language spoken by the vast majority of the population of the island of Ireland for thousands of years before being nearly stamped out in the 18th/19th century and therefore it's cultural link can't simply be ignored or looked upon as a footnote.

And? Has someone said that it should be ignored or looked upon as a footnote?

To be so offended that someone asking your thoughts on it (as an Irishman) seems repugnant to you beggars belief.

I wasn't offended that someone asked my thoughts on the language. It was quite clear that my offence was at the suggestion that my views on the language were a determinant of whether or not (or to what degree) I was Irish. As I already said, it was the premise of the question to which I objected.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree. Perhaps you should give consideration to withdrawing your comments about my comments being a "new low". Or maybe you should also chastise those, like micls and Gather round who agree with me.

[geysir]

I am not suggesting that someones's Irishness is determined by his or her political views. That is what you have done,.

Despite your best gymnastic efforts to twist whatever I wrote to fit your prejudiced stereotypes and drag me into a ("blood") debate away from the thread you will not find one example where I deviated away from the established constitutional criteria and FIFA interpretation of such when it comes to a scale of interpretating the strength of a link to the Irish state.

[Blanchflower]

Despite your best gymnastic efforts to twist whatever I wrote to fit your prejudiced stereotypes and drag me into a ("blood") debate away from the thread you will not find one example where I deviated away from the established constitutional criteria and FIFA interpretation of such when it comes to a scale of interpretating the strength of a link to the Irish state.

Sorry pal, mistook you for lopez.

You didn't suggest that someones's Irishness is determined by his or her political views. But I was responding to others who did and it is certainly not "cheap and nasty" to object to that - it is the attitude behind the suggestions being objected to which are "cheap and nasty".

You should be attacking those who make such suggestions, not those who object to them.

[geysir]

Sorry pal, mistook you for lopez.

You didn't suggest that someones's Irishness is determined by his or her political views. But I was responding to others who did and it is certainly not "cheap and nasty" to object to that - it is the attitude behind the suggestions being objected to which are "cheap and nasty".

You should be attacking those who make such suggestions, not those who object to them.

As I have a soft touch for Lopez I won't be too insulted.
People have their own questions which often don't relate to what other posters are debating.
And the question was asked to another poster
I still consider that you jumped the gun, reacting what you thought was being alluded to. In the context of what was being debated, Jayneymac's questions were fair game, they were cultural not political and was missing just one word to make that crystal clear.

"Here is a question that might help (me)to figure out how 'Irish' you are?"
in the post
http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=819133&postcount=657

[Gather round]

do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else

No- this is a contrived example exaggerated unreasonably, I think. Even allowing for particular religious/ cultural/ educational attitudes within the Pakistani community, there can't be significant numbers of third generation immigrants who can't or won't speak English. However, since you mention it, Urdu is a common language in Pakistan (and very similar to Hindi), but I think a majority in the country speak other languages, led by Punjabi, as their 'morr tongue'

As I keep reiterating, and will continue, being Irish while being an exclusive British citizen relegates one's Irishness to a regionality. Like being Yorkshireman and British. One's a nationality, the other just the gaff I'm from

I'm entirely relaxed about what you see as a relegation- although I'd advise you against developing the theory in a Leeds or Sheffield pub. You simply haven't demonstrated that any of us (on the thread and beyond) is any more or less Irish than any other

You might find someone with more Irish connections than some of the players you currently have

Perhaps. I stand to be corrected that apart from Herr Torhuter Schneider* (heh, I knew that Michel Thomas course would come in handy), we've had no other players in reccent years who haven't had a parent from NI if not growing up there themselves.

I thought you considered yourself 100% Northern Irish

I do. That doesn't contradict me being 100% British** and 100% Irish

Must admit Spanish in a Northern Irish accent is quite sexy

Get yer coat, amigo. Ye've pulled

'Aye, aye, aye! Me duele mi pija. Creia que Principe Alberto era el marido de
Reina Vitoria de Inglaterra?'

La Empresa Victoria, por favor!

As I have a soft touch for Lopez I won't be too insulted

For your sake, I hope your Spanish is even worse than mine. Giving some of the kinkiness Lopez is detailing above...

* goalkeeper, Taylor
** OK, any pedants reading. 'British' here means shorthand for the larger country, including NI, as I never refer the UK. I'm no monarchist.

[kingdomkerry]

At last, a fellow Irishman who is happy to accept and respect other Irishmen without first establishing whether they meet "the right criteria".

Refreshing (in the context of this forum) to read your views, micls.

The word "camogie" should have made that clear Blanch
Boys play hurling Girls play camogie just in case you were wondering.

[Drumcondra 69er]

You didn't suggest that someones's Irishness is determined by his or her political views. But I was responding to others who did and it is certainly not "cheap and nasty" to object to that - it is the attitude behind the suggestions being objected to which are "cheap and nasty".

You should be attacking those who make such suggestions, not those who object to them.

That's your preception of what was suggested, myself and others on here (including the original poster) think that your perception of the question is wrong and that you over reacted in a 'cheap and nasty' way. I see notinhg in any of your responses to suggest that you're not still over reacting to some imagined slur. You agree that the the language is an important cultural reference point so why can't you see that culture and politics are totally different issues. The arguement had degenerated into farce at this stage iny case.

[CollegeTillIDie]

That's your preception of what was suggested, myself and others on here (including the original poster) think that your perception of the question is wrong and that you over reacted in a 'cheap and nasty' way. I see notinhg in any of your responses to suggest that you're not still over reacting to some imagined slur. You agree that the the language is an important cultural reference point so why can't you see that culture and politics are totally different issues. The arguement had degenerated into farce at this stage iny case.

If I may quote Sam McAughtry '' My political affiliation may be British, but culturally I am Irish. There is no such thing as British culture, only English, Scottish and Welsh cultures.'' I think that sums up the position of Blanchflower and many of his brethern in the Wee North. They are both British and Irish. If I may quote another example. The Channel Islands.
Part of the Agreement between France and England regarding the territories is, any Channel Islander who wishes to do so , may claim French citizenship.

So in that sense Channel Islanders are both French and English. Vive Les Iles De Manches

[Drumcondra 69er]

do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else

No- this is a contrived example exaggerated unreasonably, I think. Even allowing for particular religious/ cultural/ educational attitudes within the Pakistani community, there can't be significant numbers of third generation immigrants who can't or won't speak English. However, since you mention it, Urdu is a common language in Pakistan (and very similar to Hindi), but I think a majority in the country speak other languages, led by Punjabi, as their 'morr tongue'

.

Correct, it was a contrived exagerrated example to highlight how ludoucris this discussion had got and no more unreasonable then using the Native American and Aboriginal example that it was in response to. Glad you could see that!

And you're also correct in saying that many people in Pakistan speak other languages (over 80 I believe) Urdu is the officially recognised language of the state (along with English) hence why I used that as an example.

[paul_oshea]

should this thread be renamed "The Irish Question"?!

or even "The Irish Question: Part Deux"

[lopez]

I didn't - I was responding to others making allegations of identity crises.

You're lying again! You brought up the 'identity crisis' (post # 538) remark in response to someone saying that they knew 2G and 3G people born in England who consider themselves Irish. The poster (Drumcondra 69er) never mentioned that these people didn't have Irish citizenship and never mentioned that they only had one grandparent. You brought up the Identity crisis issue. I think we should look at the identity crisis you clearly have then, if you are going to start insulting us.

And presumably you think somene who is Irish and British is somehow "less" Irish than someone who is Irish only.

This is exactly what you stated in (post # 538). To remind you: 'I find it strange that someone with 3 English grandparents and 1 Irish grandparent would consider himself "100% Irish" and have no affinity with Britain. Such a person must be very poor at arithmetic or have some kind of identity crisis.'

That is the chauvinistic, ugly exclusivist attitude to which I object. I do not accept you as an authority to tell me or anyone else that I am "less" Irish because I am also British.

I don't accept you as an authority on who is or who isn't Irish. If you are going to hold such views then so will I. And it helps my case that so many of your fellow 'countrymen' feel the same way.

Of course. I didn't "need" to because I don't "need" to say things I don't believe. I never [COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]told anyone who has a passport of a country that he is not a citizen of that country. To do so would be nonsensical, given that passports are only available to citizens.[/FONT][/COLOR]

You insinuated as much in post #538.

Still don't understand - the English population is the English population, made up of those who live there.

If you are going to add the foreign born children and grandchildren of Ireland in the Irish population, then what about the foreign born children and grandchildren of the English. How did Owen Hargreaves qualify to play for England? How did Zola Budd run for Britain?

Maybe you don't, but that doesn't alter the fact that, in my view, NI shouldn't pick players with no connection to NI, and, therefore, it is not inconsistent for me to have the same opinion about ROI.

I still don't care who you pick. Just don't stop Irish nationalists playing for their country.

Again, that doesn't alter the fact that in the 80s and 90s the NI criteria were stricter. It seems that you now accept this point, which previously you have been arguing against.

It doesn't alter the fact that you picked players with no connection to the territory of the IFA before we did.

If, by "Ireland" you mean the 26C, then its name is a misnomer, as I've pointed out.

You've pointed out a lot of things that have been b*locks.

I'll take that as a "no": you don't deny that Great Britain[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana], Ireland and neighbouring isles were known as the British Isles? Nor that Great Britain and Ireland were once part of a "greater entity" (i.e. the UK of GB & Ireland).[/FONT][/COLOR]

Ironically, when Ealing does that he will read: "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"!

Ironically it is known as a British passport even to the people that issue it. I rest my case. (BTW, my passport says 'Ireland', not 'Republic of Ireland' )

http://www.ukpassportsadvice.com/index4.html

This page is for British citizens and provides information only on British passports, as well as some helpful advice on the application processes.

http://www.britishembassy.ie/textonl...qualifynew.htm

Do I qualify for a British Passport?

In most cases, a person born before 1 January 1983 in the United Kingdom (England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man) is eligible to hold a British passport.

ALL FIRST TIME CLAIMS TO BRITISH NATIONALITY MUST BE BACKED UP WITH SUITABLE DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE IN THE FORM OF ORIGINAL BIRTH, MARRIAGE AND REGISTRATION CERTIFICATES (OR CERTIFIED COPIES FROM THE ISSUING OFFICE CONCERNED).

Blanchflower and EG: Please post anything referring to Northern Irish citizenship. I'd be interested in reading it.

[lopez]

do you think that if a family move to England from Pakistan say and after 3 generations still only spoke Urdu and didn't speak English at all that they'd have difficulty being accepted as 'English' by everyone else

No- this is a contrived example exaggerated unreasonably, I think. Even allowing for particular religious/ cultural/ educational attitudes within the Pakistani community, there can't be significant numbers of third generation immigrants who can't or won't speak English. However, since you mention it, Urdu is a common language in Pakistan (and very similar to Hindi), but I think a majority in the country speak other languages, led by Punjabi, as their 'morr tongue'

You could change this to Somalian, although the lack of English after three generations would be hard to comprehend unless the kids never went to school or went to school in their own language (not unreasonable seeing there are Spanish and Japanese schools I know of, plus I could just about imagine three generations of English in Benidorm not learning Spanish).

As I keep reiterating, and will continue, being Irish while being an exclusive British citizen relegates one's Irishness to a regionality. Like being Yorkshireman and British. One's a nationality, the other just the gaff I'm from

I'm entirely relaxed about what you see as a relegation- although I'd advise you against developing the theory in a Leeds or Sheffield pub. You simply haven't demonstrated that any of us (on the thread and beyond) is any more or less Irish than any other

I'd probably think twice about claiming you're Irish in certain pubs on the Shankill Road too. So you are fine about the relegation of Irish to a 'regionalism'? That's fine with me.

You might find someone with more Irish connections than some of the players you currently have

Perhaps. I stand to be corrected that apart from Herr Torhuter Schneider* (heh, I knew that Michel Thomas course would come in handy), we've had no other players in reccent years who haven't had a parent from NI if not growing up there themselves.

Why Torhuter Schneider?

'Aye, aye, aye! Me duele mi pija. Creia que Principe Alberto era el marido de
Reina Vitoria de Inglaterra?'

La Empresa Victoria, por favor!

Apologies. Although, I always thought of you as a (British) Republican.