Big Jack or Slick Mick?

**Gaz** · 07/06/2001, 4:18 PM

Nice debate going on in another thread about this, so I thought I'd give it it's own thread. Do you long for the glory days of Jack Charlton when it was all about the result, or do you prefer the more attractive football that Mick brought to the team? Is Mick the right man for the job? Should Jack have gone? Should Jack ever have been manager in the first place?

Answers on a postcard, please!

**James** · 07/06/2001, 4:24 PM

..between the 2 i'd go for mick as some of the time ( definately not last night) they try to play good football, as oppose to hoofing it into the corners or to big Quinner or Cas.

But i won't like either as manager.

i say give Gaz's cat a chance

**Gaz** · 07/06/2001, 4:28 PM

James, you're spot on - I've used my God like Administrator powers to modify the poll.

**dahamsta** · 07/06/2001, 4:37 PM

[Adam censors himself because it is in fact he who is the moron.]

adam

Neil · 07/06/2001, 5:01 PM

Mick without a doubt. Good football and a majority of Irish players. Good riddance to hoofing, Eddie McGoldrick (and the likes) and Big Geordie Jack.

**Gaz** · 07/06/2001, 5:13 PM

As posted elsewhere:

I guarantee that if you asked your average Irish fan to name their top three experiences, none of them would be under Mick. For example, my three:

1) Italy, WC 94 (Ray!!)
2) England, Euro 88 (Go on Ray!!!)
3) N. Ireland, Qualifiers for WC 94

(Outside of that, there was the Ireland v England game in Italia 90 as well)

So you see, despite the fact that back in the day we played "hoof it and hope", we got results and a rather creditable ranking of 6th in the World. And those are the things we remember. I doubt that in years to come you'll hear oul fellas in the pub saying things like "Remember the time we nearly beat Holland in 2000? Ah sure we fell apart, but God we passed the ball well for a while, so we did."

**rebel yell** · 07/06/2001, 10:21 PM

I voted for Charlton as he was a WC cup winner himself and made us hard to beat. He awakened football by success at senior level in this country which made the young teams come through. Note our success at U-16. U 18 level etc. But Charlton
should never have axed Liam Tuohy! That was a disgrace! But also Big Jack hated making substitutions and would not be as good today,
and only one automatically qualify now. I'd love Spider O'leary
as part-time manager!

**joe** · 08/06/2001, 8:31 AM

I'd have to go with Mick, though it's a close call between those three.

When you look at the players Charlton had I think our 'achievements' in tournaments should have been expected, but because we had never done anything before people's expectations were low.

**Éanna** · 08/06/2001, 9:48 AM

Never liked either of them, so I voted for Gaz's cat. Charlton had a clue, but his team was appalling to watch, McCarthy's team CAN be good to watch, but he doesn't have a clue. Brian Kerr for Ireland!

**Daniel McD** · 08/06/2001, 1:12 PM

Why Brian Kerr Eanna, because he's Irish ...

Kerr's teams for under 18 level have been full of guys who you wouldn't class as Irish and I wouldn't either

Very significant fact. Aside from Kilbane, who really is Irish and turned down England when he was 15 and made it clear he was Irish, every single Irish player that started against Portugal last Saturday was actually born and raised in Ireland etc etc. ..

Given, Carr, Harte, Dunne, Staunton, Kinsella, Keane, Kilbane, Kelly, Keane and Quinn ..

Think I'm right there ...

**Macy** · 08/06/2001, 1:47 PM

Yeah - the issue for me was never where someone was born. Kilbane knew what nationality he was - no career decision, and just because he was born in England doesn't matter.
Manager's - Charlton just for the memorable results, if not the memorable matches - any football lover must find it hard to accept the long ball game.

**Éanna** · 08/06/2001, 3:37 PM

Because I think he's a good manager, and I don't think the step up would change that. I already said elsewhere I don't mind where the manager is from, it's the players that interest me. I take your point about the line-up, yeah they were all Irish. BUT Mick still likes to grovel before the Butlers and Morrisions in the press. Anyways, I'm fed up of this debate to be honest, so I'll finish my piece by saying that I will never support Mick McCarthy as Ireland manager- but I will continue to support the team

**Gaz** · 08/06/2001, 4:02 PM

When it comes right down to it, I couldn't give a feck about who's managing, or what the performance is like. In fact although I'd love it if every single player was born, raised and came through the ranks here, I really don't mind the odd Granny catcher in the ranks either - case in point, Matt Holland (from Bury - and I never had an issue with Houghton, Townsend and the like). When it comes down to it, all I care about is coming away from the matches with a result, and up until now those results haven't been coming.

Yeah, we can beat the Estonians and the Cypriots (sp?) of the world, but when it comes to the crunch matches against decent opposition like Holland, Portugal, Croatia, we start mumbling about draws being a good result. There was a time under Jack Charlton where we'd run out against those teams and expect a win - and that's the thing that annoys me most about the current state of the Irish team. We as fans are starting to slide back into being comfortable with being an average international team, with little or no expectations.

**The Good Son** · 08/06/2001, 4:35 PM

Éanna did you ever consider moving to Oldham you'd fit in nicely with the racially pure 16% who voted for BNP.

**James** · 08/06/2001, 4:36 PM

in those days when we would go out expecting a win we had world class players...moran/mcgrath/brady/whelan etc and we also had less players that were below international standard..I mean staunton or dunne wouldnt have got within a sniff of the team back then..as they are playing now.

that is why we expect less. we are happy with a draw because we know the team is not as good.
as for being happy about it well i'm not so sure either. I'm not happy about the fact that connolly was getting a run out and that stan and dunne are playing but you also have to look at the situation with a degree of realism. who else is out there?

that said i still reckon we can beat the dutch and qualify no matter how bad the team.

Btw Gaz will your cat be looking for an assistant cause my hamster aint doing much at the mo.

james

**Éanna** · 09/06/2001, 11:25 AM

So now it's racist to want irish people to be Irish?! I'm all in favour of every form of equality, and totally against any discrimination, but some people are taking this too far! The comment re the skinhead nazi scum in Oldham is bloody low, those are the very people who have threatened me on numerous occasions for wearing a Che Guevara top with a communist flag on it- hardly the actions of a skinhead! Next time you want to accuse someone of something, particularly something that VILE, would you try and get some basis for your comments!

**The Good Son** · 09/06/2001, 3:00 PM

Well you've already stated elsewhere,"I don't care if a guys name is Goran Abdul Mandela or what he looks like, as long as he was born here", so you are saying unless you are born here you aren't Irish.
Che Guevara on your "right-on man" top would've qualified for Ireland (he'd a mother or grandmother from Kerry I think) but under your thinking he wouldn't have been welcome to play for Ireland.
You've also said about MickMcCarthy "he's not 110% Irish- he's English, he was born in England" now Mc Carthy might not be even related to a football manager but one thing he isn't is English.
So I'll admit I was wrong about the BNP thing ,they don't have a problem with English people born in other countries so you'd probably be a bit too extreme for them

**soccerhead** · 18/06/2001, 10:55 PM

Jack's days were fantastic, however, McCarthy, to his credit has turned his spell around to fine tune his men into one of the most impressive sides around. His biggest test off all will be to see if he can miracoulasly crawl into The World Cup Finals. It is unfair on Mick to compare the two as Mc Carthy may have yet to produce his finest days. At the moment Charlton is thed main man but Mick should overhaul him.

**Éanna** · 19/06/2001, 12:51 AM

Ok, answer me this- has McCarthy ever lived in Ireland for a sustained period of time? I doubt it. Irish and all as he may feel, he was born and reared in England, however Irish his upbringing was. And please spare me the BNP crap. If anyone said that to my face, I'd string them up.I don't condone any kind of racism, I have no problem with refugees/immigration- I welcome it. All I said was that Irish means being born in Ireland! It's a bloody fact. Get a grip!

**The Good Son** · 19/06/2001, 10:31 AM

Dear Auntie Eanna(official decider of nationalities),
Thank you for clearing up what being Irish exactly is,but now I'm worried as I had the misfortune of living in London for a year out of my 33 in the late 80's for economic reasons does this mean I'm not Irish? Also I've a friend who was born in England came over here until he was 7 or 8 went to live in Wales for the next 10 years or so and has been living in Cork since( over 10 years) is he Irish,English,Welsh or just a mongrel?I know another person who can only trace his Irishness back 3 generations and suspects there may be a bit of German before that, is he Irish?What exact"sustained period of time" does one need to be in Ireland to consider themselves Irish?Please clear up these queries for me as soon as possible.Once again I'll admit I was wrong with the BNP slur, it's obvious from your preference for stringing up you'd be more comfortable with The KKK.
Love and peace, The Good Son.