Champions League thread

**micls** · 23/05/2008, 9:53 AM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

From actually playing football sorry and listening to coaches who always say expect the unexpected. Messi should cover the run for Scholes for no other reason that a player should not be free on the edge of the box. THat is what you do as a footballer. You track runs of unrushing midfielders. Carrick did not do it last night and he got punished for it. If the shot had not taken the deflections it ma have drifted wide. However a good coach will still spot it and call Carrick over after the game and say, you got away with that one. THe same in this incident. Tracking of run is an integral part of the game and if you fail to do it, most of the time you may get away with it but sometimes it gets punished in the most unlikely way, Messi was punished for it. Simple as that.

Firstly if he expected it it wouldnt be unexpected.

Secondly, If Zambrotta had done what he would have 9 out of 10 times, then Messi would have been free high up the pitch and Scholes would have been out of position giving Barca a good attacking opportunity.

I can see your point, but Messi was playing the odds. If it had come off as it would have 9 out of 10 times then youd probably be saying the opposite, that Scholes should have been tracking Messi. You cant play based on the 1/10 chance. You have to play the percentages.

Messi will score more goals each season from being free up front after not tracking the run when his own team has teh ball, than Barca will concede from Zambrotta making the unusual mistake

**drinkfeckarse** · 23/05/2008, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by micls

Firstly if he expected it it wouldnt be unexpected.

Secondly, If Zambrotta had done what he would have 9 out of 10 times, then Messi would have been free high up the pitch and Scholes would have been out of position giving Barca a good attacking opportunity.

I can see your point, but Messi was playing the odds. If it had come off as it would have 9 out of 10 times then youd probably be saying the opposite, that Scholes should have been tracking Messi. You cant play based on the 1/10 chance. You have to play the percentages.

Messi will score more goals each season from being free up front after not tracking the run when his own team has teh ball, than Barca will concede from Zambrotta making the unusual mistake

Spot on.

**lionelhutz** · 23/05/2008, 12:08 PM

Originally Posted by micls

Firstly if he expected it it wouldnt be unexpected.

Secondly, If Zambrotta had done what he would have 9 out of 10 times, then Messi would have been free high up the pitch and Scholes would have been out of position giving Barca a good attacking opportunity.

I can see your point, but Messi was playing the odds. If it had come off as it would have 9 out of 10 times then youd probably be saying the opposite, that Scholes should have been tracking Messi. You cant play based on the 1/10 chance. You have to play the percentages.

Messi will score more goals each season from being free up front after not tracking the run when his own team has teh ball, than Barca will concede from Zambrotta making the unusual mistake

Couldn't agree more. If Zambrotta had played it to a team mate - which he would do 99 times out of a 100 - Barca would have been on the break and Messi would be free in space. If Messi ended up scoring, would you blame Scholes for not tracking him?? By NeilMcD's reasoning, he would be at blame.

And to compare it to Carrick not tracking Lampards run is complete stupidity. As was already stated, Chelsea were in possession and attacking when Lampard made his run while Barca were in possession for Scholes goal.

Yes Neil I think we all know there can be more than one person at fault for a goal, but not this time when its such a blatant mistake by one man

**WoodquayBoy** · 23/05/2008, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by oldyouth

I don't think Chelsea are a good footballing side, but John Terry is a good footballing person

Think you hold a minority view there
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ionsleague0708

Check the youtube links to the spitting incident. Now, still a nice bloke?

**ken foree** · 23/05/2008, 12:54 PM

the pro-messi arguments here contain a lot of "ifs", "should'ves", and "gambling percentages" - those don't matter, when the ball is moved to scholes, the game has changed from that other reality where zambrotta passes it calmly back to his keeper, and the new reality of scholes running free and scoring begins to take shape. messi stopped playing, he - by your definition - gambled incorrectly. just replace him with stephen ireland and you'll see what i mean.

**micls** · 23/05/2008, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by ken foree

gambled incorrectly.

Of course he did. But givent that its a gamble its not going to come off every time. However if it comes off more times than it doesnt, which most would agree it would(i.e. Zambrotta wouldnt screw up the clearance) then its the right choice overall.

He's not psychic. It would be a different scenario if United had had the ball.

**cartman** · 23/05/2008, 1:49 PM

neil mcd , going by your reckoning on the scholes goal - messi should be tracking scholes while his own team have the ball...
so at the exact same time in the same game were the likes of eto tracking ferdinand in case he broke forward even though barcelona had the ball!!
the whole point being, why in the name of god would you be tracking an opposition player when your own team have the ball??? its just plain ridiculous really..
also the fact that its barcelona who have the ball [1 of the best teams at retaining possession in the game] in this situation makes your reasoning just foolish..
you have some balls to be questioning other peoples knowledge of the game on here after stupid comments like these

**superfrank** · 23/05/2008, 2:00 PM

Wednesday night was heartbreaking.

John Terry has taken, and scored, penalties before in the league when Lampard hasn't taken them so I wasn't surprised he went up to take one.

I thought it was a pretty good match. Fair play to Man U, they held on.

Irrelevant but will Fergie be banned for going up to the ref at half-time. He was waiting for the ref at the tunnel like a primary school bully. He is disgraceful.

I won't defend Drogba or Terry but surely Hargreaves should have been sent off for pushing the ref in the big melee.

**Roadend** · 23/05/2008, 2:09 PM

Originally Posted by ken foree

the pro-messi arguments here contain a lot of "ifs", "should'ves", and "gambling percentages" - those don't matter, when the ball is moved to scholes, the game has changed from that other reality where zambrotta passes it calmly back to his keeper,and the new reality of scholes running free and scoring begins to take shape. messi stopped playing, he - by your definition - gambled incorrectly. just replace him with stephen ireland and you'll see what i mean.

Unlike the if messi had tracked back he should've stopped scholes etc? Completely different then

Anyway, shouldn't Deco or Xavi have been tracking Scholes?

**OwlsFan** · 23/05/2008, 4:52 PM

Originally Posted by superfrank

Irrelevant but will Fergie be banned for going up to the ref at half-time. He was waiting for the ref at the tunnel like a primary school bully. He is disgraceful.

This from "Mr. Morals" himself:

Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson has accused Real Madrid of lacking morals in their pursuit of Cristiano Ronaldo.

Real coach Bernd Schuster and president Ramon Calderon have both expressed a desire to see Ronaldo at The Bernabeu.

Ferguson, fresh from United's Champions League truimph, said: "Schuster's talking and Calderon's talking.

"Real think they can ride roughshod over everyone, but they won't do it with us. They have no moral issues."

**superfrank** · 24/05/2008, 12:17 AM

It just occured to me:

Don't Everton get a few million euros now?

Pretty sure there was some stipulation in Wayne Rooney's deal that if Man U won the league in so many years after he joined Everton would get some more money and that something similar was agreed if they won the CL.

**NeilMcD** · 24/05/2008, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by cartman

neil mcd , going by your reckoning on the scholes goal - messi should be tracking scholes while his own team have the ball...
so at the exact same time in the same game were the likes of eto tracking ferdinand in case he broke forward even though barcelona had the ball!!
the whole point being, why in the name of god would you be tracking an opposition player when your own team have the ball??? its just plain ridiculous really..
also the fact that its barcelona who have the ball [1 of the best teams at retaining possession in the game] in this situation makes your reasoning just foolish..
you have some balls to be questioning other peoples knowledge of the game on here after stupid comments like these

Thanks for the compliments on my balls. Secondly if you read the thread you will find it was my knowledge of football that was questioned first. Finally David Pleat is knows his football and he straight away mentions Messi.

**NeilMcD** · 24/05/2008, 1:22 PM

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

This from "Mr. Morals" himself:

Manchester United boss Sir Alex Ferguson has accused Real Madrid of lacking morals in their pursuit of Cristiano Ronaldo.

Real coach Bernd Schuster and president Ramon Calderon have both expressed a desire to see Ronaldo at The Bernabeu.

Ferguson, fresh from United's Champions League truimph, said: "Schuster's talking and Calderon's talking.

"Real think they can ride roughshod over everyone, but they won't do it with us. They have no moral issues."

This from self confessed ABU

**stojkovic** · 24/05/2008, 2:11 PM

Yeah, as if Old Whiskey Nose never tapped up anyone in his life !

**Armando** · 24/05/2008, 2:30 PM

Originally Posted by superfrank

Wednesday night was heartbreaking.

John Terry has taken, and scored, penalties before in the league when Lampard hasn't taken them so I wasn't surprised he went up to take one.

I thought it was a pretty good match. Fair play to Man U, they held on.

Irrelevant but will Fergie be banned for going up to the ref at half-time. He was waiting for the ref at the tunnel like a primary school bully. He is disgraceful.

I won't defend Drogba or Terry but surely Hargreaves should have been sent off for pushing the ref in the big melee.

What!? Bullying the ref? Ferguson stands up for his team and it's it's the way it should be. It is ingrained in his players to leave the talking up to him. Look at the other top teams Chelsea and Arsenal - their players conduct on countless occasions are a disgrace because thier respective managers let them carry on like this.

In this incident Chelsea were very late out of the dressing rooms for 2nd half. Utd were waiting on the pitch a couple of minutes and Ferguson let the ref know he wasn't happy with it - proper order I'd say. He looks after his players and doesn't miss a trick....a big part of what makes him the greatest manager on the planet.
Having said all that I readily understand why most outsiders wouldn't like him because of the siege mentality he has created to get the best out of his players. But again this obviously works judging by Utds constant success and is another hallmark of his greatness.

As for saying Hargreaves should have been sent off...are you serious? Clutching at straws to be honest.

**oldyouth** · 24/05/2008, 2:41 PM