Champions League thread

**shakermaker1982** · 22/05/2008, 3:52 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Is that messi who was at fault for Scholes goal at Old Trafford but no mentioned by any of the RTE pundits. Messis is a great player no doubt but 42 goals this season. A goal in the Champions league final and quarter final and last 16. He was the best player this season in the world. Also he did get quality crosses in, one was to Tevez head and another were into very dangerous areas but there did not happen to be a player making the correct run.

Neil - don't try and reason with em. I've been trying for weeks to point out that Ronaldo isn't a 1 trick pony/crap/bottle job/choker but you just cannot win with Liverpool supporters. They are the Eamon Dunphy's of foot.ie

**Roadend** · 22/05/2008, 3:59 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Watch the goal again and you will see that at one Stage that Scholes and messi are level but Messi Stos running and he lets Scholes goal who gambles and goes into a clever space and the ball drops to him and he scores. Messi did not anticipate this. He was at fault and so was Zambrotta who was more so at fault. Simple as that.

Zambrotta was at fault an nobody else, to even try to somehow say Messi was to blame is farcical. Zambrotta was in control of the ball and need only have knocked it back to Valdes to clear it, Messi had no need to track Scoles back. Zambrotta inexplicably played a blind clearence, a ball that nobody at any level of the game should be attempting. Sorry mate but you are so worng on this one its not even funny.

**NeilMcD** · 22/05/2008, 4:05 PM

Sorry mate you are wrong. Part of being a footballer is sensing danger and you should track the run even if youi think Zambrotta is going to hit it back to the keeper. Messi was lazy for not trackign Scholes run as he was with him and he let him go. You do not let a central midfielder go free and stand on teh edge of the pentaly. Its those sort of incidences that seperates peopel who actually know the game and other than don't. Even if Zambrotta puts the ball back to Valdes a good coach will have word with Mess and say, do not let that happen again.

Zambrotta was the main culprit but Messi should have covered the run. He idea that you have no need to track someone back shows your lack of knowledge of the game I am afraid. There is always a need to track a runner of a player who is dangerous and is about to go unmarked to the edge of the penalty area.

**Block G Raptor** · 22/05/2008, 4:07 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

You do not let a central midfielder go free and stand on teh edge of the pentaly. Its those sort of incidences that seperates peopel who actually know the game and other than don't.

What, Like Michael Carrick for Lampards Goal last night ?

**NeilMcD** · 22/05/2008, 4:07 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsrEAL_8RMo

Here you go this confirms it and added to that is Pleats comment too.

**NeilMcD** · 22/05/2008, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

What, Like Michael Carrick for Lampards Goal last night ?

Yeah Carrick was at fault for that. Carrick was poor last night I though. Not a great player at all and not even in the same league as Messi or Ronaldo or Scholes. I am not sure what your point is. Carrick is a Spurs player, thats his level in my view.

**Roadend** · 22/05/2008, 4:09 PM

Hahahahaha, you're funny if nothing else. Messi should be sensing Zambrotta's mistake playing a ball a fella would be coached all his life not to play. Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Stick to FM of FIFA or whatever is you get your football knowledge from.

**NeilMcD** · 22/05/2008, 4:12 PM

From actually playing football sorry and listening to coaches who always say expect the unexpected. Messi should cover the run for Scholes for no other reason that a player should not be free on the edge of the box. THat is what you do as a footballer. You track runs of unrushing midfielders. Carrick did not do it last night and he got punished for it. If the shot had not taken the deflections it ma have drifted wide. However a good coach will still spot it and call Carrick over after the game and say, you got away with that one. THe same in this incident. Tracking of run is an integral part of the game and if you fail to do it, most of the time you may get away with it but sometimes it gets punished in the most unlikely way, Messi was punished for it. Simple as that.

**paul_oshea** · 22/05/2008, 4:15 PM

has anyone seen the JT stuff going around? its class.

**Roadend** · 22/05/2008, 4:16 PM

And coaches tell you play it the way you are facing which Zambrotta did not do, I can't even believe this is a point of contention. Zambrotta F'ed up big time, that's all there is to it.

Also I don't know why you are comparing the Carrick situation to the Messi one, Barca were in possession for the Scholes goal, Chelsea were in possession for the Chelsea goal, different situations.

**NeilMcD** · 22/05/2008, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by Roadend

And coaches tell you play it the way you are facing which Zambrotta did not do, I can't even believe this is a point of contention. Zambrotta F'ed up big time, that's all there is to it.

You seem to be missing the point. I never said that Zambrotta was not at fault but I am not sure ifyou can handle this but you can have more than one culprit in a goal. You have the main culprit who was Zambrotta and you also have Messi who was not doing his job. Now try to think aabout that and maybe your brain will not explode but Messi was also at faullt but to a lesser extent.

I hope you are not coaching any team of note cause your way of looking at football in a binary manner is rather simplistic and lacking any sort of nuance.

**Billsthoughts** · 22/05/2008, 4:18 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Sorry mate you are wrong. Part of being a footballer is sensing danger and you should track the run even if youi think Zambrotta is going to hit it back to the keeper. Messi was lazy for not trackign Scholes run as he was with him and he let him go. You do not let a central midfielder go free and stand on teh edge of the pentaly. Its those sort of incidences that seperates peopel who actually know the game and other than don't. Even if Zambrotta puts the ball back to Valdes a good coach will have word with Mess and say, do not let that happen again.

Zambrotta was the main culprit but Messi should have covered the run. He idea that you have no need to track someone back shows your lack of knowledge of the game I am afraid. There is always a need to track a runner of a player who is dangerous and is about to go unmarked to the edge of the penalty area.

Totally disagree. Messi is there as an attacking player he is supposed to anticipate attacking breaks and put himself in a position to capitalise on any little chance. He is arguably giving himself a few yards on scholes in the event of a counter attack. Whcih would have been the case if Zanbrottas brain hadnt gone awol. Its simplistic views like yours (everyone has to track back full stop) which does my head in.

**Roadend** · 22/05/2008, 4:20 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

You seem to be missing the point. I never said that Zambrotta was not at fault but I am not sure ifyou can handle this but you can have more than one culprit in a goal. You have the main culprit who was Zambrotta and you also have Messi who was not doing his job. Now try to think aabout that and maybe your brain will not explode but Messi was also at faullt but to a lesser extent.

I hope you are not coaching any team of note cause your way of looking at football in a binary manner is rather simplistic and lacking any sort of nuance.

Messi's job is not to track back when Barca are in posession and on the verge of a counter attack, my god man, what sort of football tactics do you follow.

**Closed Account 2** · 22/05/2008, 4:37 PM

Originally Posted by Roadend

Zambrotta was at fault an nobody else, to even try to somehow say Messi was to blame is farcical. Zambrotta was in control of the ball and need only have knocked it back to Valdes to clear it, Messi had no need to track Scoles back. Zambrotta inexplicably played a blind clearence, a ball that nobody at any level of the game should be attempting. Sorry mate but you are so worng on this one its not even funny.

I agree, and the way Barca played Messi couldn't afford to track back. They needed him in the middle of the park otherwise they would have had no outlet from defence.

If he was tracking back on Scholes all game then Barca would have had no attacking intent and would have retreated into a shell and had no chance of scoring. The bottom line is Zambrotta is not an effective defender, he is one of Barca's many weak links and even if he moves to Milan his career is on the slide.

The notion that Messi should be tracking back belongs in the Walter Smith school of football dourness. Barca are not the sort of team who play with 2 banks of 4 in their own box to try and get a match on penalties.

**NeilMcD** · 22/05/2008, 4:38 PM

Originally Posted by Roadend

Messi's job is not to track back when Barca are in posession and on the verge of a counter attack, my god man, what sort of football tactics do you follow.

Its called working hard no matter who you are and my view is that if it was Ronaldo the RTE panel would have gone on and on about it. Look at it again. Scholes runs past Messi and Messi just lets him drift into the danger area. That should have been tracked simple as that. What it then means is not matter what Zambrotta does, Scholes is covered and his chance to shoot is blocked and no goal.

**NeilMcD** · 22/05/2008, 4:41 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Totally disagree. Messi is there as an attacking player he is supposed to anticipate attacking breaks and put himself in a position to capitalise on any little chance. He is arguably giving himself a few yards on scholes in the event of a counter attack. Whcih would have been the case if Zanbrottas brain hadnt gone awol. Its simplistic views like yours (everyone has to track back full stop) which does my head in.

I think your view is simplistic. Sorry for doing your head I am sure you will get over it though.

**boovidge** · 22/05/2008, 4:58 PM

says it all really

**gaisc�och** · 22/05/2008, 5:36 PM

Neil Mc D. I think your right in what your saying. Michael Carrick has done that on several occassions this season alone. Tracking a man is the kind of thing you are thought as a 15 year old and if you don't do you will pay the price. United payed the price last night. Carrick is a defensive midfielder the least I'd expect from him is to follow the runners. Basic football for a professional player.

How can Edmundo say that Barca use Messi to link the attacks through the middle? Last time I looked it was Xavi and Deco who done that. Zambrotta was completely at fault Scholes was cutting off his options in the middle not expecting to get the ball. He got and now Man U are Champions of Europe.....