20 Moments that shook Irish Sport

**Bluebeard** · 30/10/2007, 5:03 PM

Originally Posted by OwlsFan

The National Stadium: was ANYONE shocked that it wasn't built?

True, none who thought for five seconds about the way it was being done were even mildly surprised; the reason I listed it was that I think the money spent on a Grand Project that no-one ever expected to see happen was a shocking waste of money that could otherwise be used to develop sports in the country.

**Rovers fan** · 30/10/2007, 5:19 PM

Originally Posted by chuckie

The biggest non-story had to be the English rugby players lining up on the wrong side of the red carpet.

ya i thought the same myself, it hardly "shook irish sport"

**pineapple stu** · 30/10/2007, 5:47 PM

From watching the programme, the sale of Milltown appeared pretty much inevitable. Rovers overspent on their four in a row team in a similar fashion to Shels in recent years, and trusted to a sugar daddy with some vague far out of reach Euro aspirations. There didn't really seem to be an alternative for selling the ground. Shocking that 20 years on, clubs still haven't learnt, and the FAI still hasn't got a mechanism in place to prevent it from happening again.

**mypost** · 30/10/2007, 6:11 PM

That is of course, from just watching the programme.

But as the saying goes, "there's more to it than meets the eye".

**DvB** · 31/10/2007, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

From watching the programme, the sale of Milltown appeared pretty much inevitable. Rovers overspent on their four in a row team in a similar fashion to Shels in recent years, and trusted to a sugar daddy with some vague far out of reach Euro aspirations. There didn't really seem to be an alternative for selling the ground. Shocking that 20 years on, clubs still haven't learnt, and the FAI still hasn't got a mechanism in place to prevent it from happening again.

Oh come on, surely you don't genuinely believe the guff Lucifer & his ilk came out with to justify their sale of the ground to property developers!? If so i'm genuinely disappointed, it is totally incomparable with the Shels situation!

Koh

**Dodge** · 31/10/2007, 12:04 PM

Stu relates everything to the Shels situation...

**pineapple stu** · 31/10/2007, 6:07 PM

Me? Never!

It is similar in a way though (run up massive debts chasing an unfeasible dream and sell the ground to cover them), although I don't know the ins and outs of the Milltown sale (before my time...), which is why I was asking the question.

**CollegeTillIDie** · 31/10/2007, 6:46 PM

pineapple stu

Oversimplified view of the situation. Basically you aren't old enough to have been aware of what was happening at the time. There was a lot of dirty work at the crossroads. Two examples
1) The Dublin Corporation voted unanimously AGAINST planning permission for Glenmalure Park. It was overturned by An Bord Pleanala. A few years later there was an internal inquiry in An Bord Pleanala as to how certain decisions were reached. The Milltown decision NOT INCLUDED in the inquiry. There were a lot of brown envelopes floating around planning issues at this time. It is not outside the realms of possibility that these were involved in this instance too.

2) The Kilcoynes owned a construction company called Healy Homes. Shamrock Rovers fans may be able to confirm this, but one of the theories was that Milltown was sold partly to offset losses in their other business, which in the early 1970's when they bought Rovers was able to partly fund the team.

**pineapple stu** · 31/10/2007, 6:49 PM

Just had a read of the thread there on the Rovers forum; very interesting. Should obviously point out that, even in the case that Rovers were losing lots of money, in my opinion selling the ground should never have been allowed by the likes of the FAI or An Bord Pleanála. Have no problem with any of the Rovers fans' views of Kilcoyne, and later giving him a job in Merrion Square was disgraceful.

**DmanDmythDledge** · 31/10/2007, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Just had a read of the thread there on the Rovers forum; very interesting. Should obviously point out that, even in the case that Rovers were losing lots of money, in my opinion selling the ground should never have been allowed by the likes of the FAI or An Bord Pleanála.

How could they have though? They owened it so could do as they liked with it. Only way I can think of if it was made a listed building but I'm sure that was totally out of the question.

**pineapple stu** · 31/10/2007, 7:03 PM

Clubs should not be allowed to sell their own grounds without some sort of plan. The FAI should have stepped in immediately.

In England, legal cases have been taken against clubs whose directors have tried to sell their grounds from under them (Wrexham the most recent example), and have had their cases upheld for reasons along the line of football grounds being important public centres. Obviously, it appears there was something dodgy with the legal processes...

**paul_oshea** · 01/11/2007, 9:08 AM

They owened it

Sorry, but thats a very interesting word. they owed it and owned it in one. Its funny that it came up in this conversation as well as it wouldn't be ironic at all otherwise.

**Schumi** · 01/11/2007, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by DmanDmythDledge

How could they have though? They owened it so could do as they liked with it. Only way I can think of if it was made a listed building but I'm sure that was totally out of the question.

An Bord Pleanála shouldn't have granted planning permission for houses. There would have been no value in selling it without that.

**gspain** · 01/11/2007, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Clubs should not be allowed to sell their own grounds without some sort of plan. The FAI should have stepped in immediately.

In England, legal cases have been taken against clubs whose directors have tried to sell their grounds from under them (Wrexham the most recent example), and have had their cases upheld for reasons along the line of football grounds being important public centres. Obviously, it appears there was something dodgy with the legal processes...

Rovers were not losing money. They sold Alan Campbell, Liam Buckley and Liam O'Brien for big fees at the time. They were the richest club in the league. This wasn't a Shelbourne. anyway Rovers didn't get the money from the sale of the ground. The Kilcoynes did.

**OneRedArmy** · 01/11/2007, 4:51 PM

Originally Posted by Schumi

An Bord Pleanála shouldn't have granted planning permission for houses. There would have been no value in selling it without that.

Given the level of planning corruption then and since the chance of it not getting PP, right in the middle of Milltown, was almost zero.

**pineapple stu** · 01/11/2007, 5:01 PM

Originally Posted by gspain

Rovers were not losing money. They sold Alan Campbell, Liam Buckley and Liam O'Brien for big fees at the time.

Fair enough. Wasn't aware of that, to be honest. Had always envisaged it as Kilcoyne giving a large loan to the company, and then selling the ground to pay it off, which gets around your point about him not owning the ground.

**gspain** · 04/11/2007, 8:58 AM

Originally Posted by CollegeTillIDie

pineapple stu

Oversimplified view of the situation. Basically you aren't old enough to have been aware of what was happening at the time. There was a lot of dirty work at the crossroads. Two examples
1) The Dublin Corporation voted unanimously AGAINST planning permission for Glenmalure Park. It was overturned by An Bord Pleanala. A few years later there was an internal inquiry in An Bord Pleanala as to how certain decisions were reached. The Milltown decision NOT INCLUDED in the inquiry. There were a lot of brown envelopes floating around planning issues at this time. It is not outside the realms of possibility that these were involved in this instance too.

2) The Kilcoynes owned a construction company called Healy Homes. Shamrock Rovers fans may be able to confirm this, but one of the theories was that Milltown was sold partly to offset losses in their other business, which in the early 1970's when they bought Rovers was able to partly fund the team.

It is beyond the realms of possibility that brown envelopes were NOT involved in any of their planning decisions at the time. They were totally completely and utterly corrupt.

**geysir** · 04/11/2007, 3:41 PM

Originally Posted by gspain

It is beyond the realms of possibility that brown envelopes were NOT involved in any of their planning decisions at the time. They were totally completely and utterly corrupt.

I think you meant to write,
It is beyond the realms of possibility that brown envelopes were involved.

Kilcoyne gave evidence to the Planning Tribunal
http://www.planningtribunal.ie/image...ONTENT_114.pdf
page 2
Kilcoyne "we retained Frank Dunlop & Associates to
represent our interests and to make representations. Mr. Dunlop had, at that time, a strong reputation as a successful lobbyist".
I think the brown envelopes are referred to as enducements in his evidence.

I haven't gone through Kilcoyne's evidence to the tribunal, I assume the PP for Glenmalure Pk. wasn't discussed otherwise we would have heard about it by now.