Whinging Ireland fans

[SkStu]

by the way, im not saying that Stan is the man for the job. I think that another manager would have made a better attempt at qualifying and we mightnt be so far behind. But in any event i think that the teams and players that deserve to qualify usually do. And i think that Germany and the Czechs were always going to get out of this group.

I just think that the players are not there for us anymore and it is going to get harder and harder to get through qualifying in the future. We just dont have enough players playing at a high enough level and this is exposed ruthlessly by the Germanys and Czech Republics of the world. We just have to change the way football is run in this country from top to bottom.

[Morbo]

Morbo, at the end of the day whats the difference between finishing 8 points or 2 points off qualifying. You are either good enough or you are not. Its that simple.

No its not that simple, some teams do qualify for tournaments that they didn't deserve to and some who were good enough to qualify don't, there is definitely a luck factor in football that accounts for at least for a 2-3 point swing, If we had a good manager and a bit of luck I believe we could of qualified but with Staunton, all the luck in the world was never going to save us.

[eekers]

Scotland have players playing in the top premiership teams

Gordon Sunderland
Hutton Rangers
McManus Celtic
Weir Rangers
Alexander Derby County
McCulloch Rangers
Ferguson Rangers
Fletcher Man United Reserves
Brown Celtic
Hartley Celtic
McFadden Everton

Pearson Derby County
O'Connor Birmingham
McGregor Rangers
McEveley Derby County
Caldwell Celtic
Boyd Rangers
Maloney Aston Villa


a glittering array of talent i'm sure you'd agree.
average players playing for average clubs organised by a good manager into a good team capable of qualifying for major tournaments.

whereas we have similiar players, plus a few of better quality, disorganised by guy with a terrible selection policy, no ambition, and who doesnt know how to hold on to a lead.

[SkStu]

you cannot selectively quote me like that. A more accurate quote would have been "Scotland have players playing in the top premiership teams and i would say at least half their squad play european football every season ... Scotland dont have a League 1 player in their squad."

following on, my guess about their european experience was way off...

Gordon Sunderland - European experience with Hearts.
Hutton Rangers - CL
McManus Celtic - CL
Weir Rangers - CL
Alexander Derby County - bottom premier
McCulloch Rangers - CL
Ferguson Rangers - CL
Fletcher Man United -not reserves, CL experience, league winner
Brown Celtic - CL
Hartley Celtic - CL
McFadden Everton - Europe & top 6 premiership side.
Pearson Derby County - has CL experience with Celtic
O'Connor Birmingham - bottom of premiership
McGregor Rangers - Champions League
McEveley Derby County - terrible (still premiership) player
Caldwell Celtic - Champions League
Boyd Rangers - Champions Leage
Maloney Aston Villa - good premiership side, average player

so out of that 18, they have 14 players who have played in top European club competition, 12 of whom do so regularly. I hope i dont have to spell out the obvious advantage they have over the irish squad in that respect.

Colgan, Doyle, Given, Henderson, Dunne, Finnan, Foley, Kelly, McShane, O’Shea, Carsley, Douglas, Gibson, Hunt, Ireland, Kilbane, McGeady, Alan O’Brien, Potter, Reid, Doyle, Keane, Keogh, Long, D Murphy.

Out of that 25 players, we have Finnan, O'Shea (is he Utd. reserves too?) and McGeady who play with some sort of regularity in the CL. Keane has played there but usually he gets UEFA. Given has played UEFA. Thats 5 players in our squad with european experience - and im being generous. The rest is made up of mid to low end Premiership players, a few championship players, Gibson and Douglas. And i wont even go into how few of them are key players or regular starters.

Now, considering how much more European experience they have in that squad, are you really that surprised that Scotland are doing better than we are?

Until we get 10-15 players playing regularly in the CL, testing themselves against the top players in the world each week then we will only have the smallest chance of qualifying for a major tournament. Changing the manager would admittedly increase our chances, though only slightly. The problem runs deeper than just the manager.

[bennocelt]

.

I'm not one for bashing Stan, he's an honest guy trying to do his best but he appears hopelessly out of his depth. Even in McCarthy's first error ridden campaign we were in contention to the last game.
.

i think he is a greedy mother........
honesty? surely he would admit he hasnt a clue, he is way out of his depth and resign................Keegan did it with honour at england

but you are spot on about the Czechs

[bennocelt]

where did i say it was a great position?!.... we are where we should be IMO behind the czechs and germany!. most of our team are mid-lower table Prem' and not all guaranteed starting positions at there clubs, hardly reasons for ppl to start threads about abandoning games and holding mass protests, ye'd swear we we're a world class team who qualify and do well in every tournament the way ppl are reacting to this!

cause it seems you are happy with third
But it will probably be fourth where we finish anyway

How would you explain the success of Scotland, Greece, denmark, or even Norn Iron under Lawrie?????????

Int football is rubbish, very few good teams, Ireland should be beating the likes of Slovakia, Cyprus and San Marino..................why is that so hard for you to accept............

[bennocelt]

you cannot selectively quote me like that. A more accurate quote would have been "Scotland have players playing in the top premiership teams and i would say at least half their squad play european football every season ... Scotland dont have a League 1 player in their squad."

.

to be fair it was a glaring error in your analysis


No one here thingks Irleand have a world class team, but we do expect to beat the likes of Slovakis, wales, Cyprus and san marino and beat an ordinary Czech team at home at least
A good manager makes the world of difference, thats why they are there in the first place, all teams have managers....expect Ireland of course!

[gilberto_eire]

cause it seems you are happy with third
But it will probably be fourth where we finish anyway

How would you explain the success of Scotland, Greece, denmark, or even Norn Iron under Lawrie?????????

Int football is rubbish, very few good teams, Ireland should be beating the likes of Slovakia, Cyprus and San Marino..................why is that so hard for you to accept............

because you've named 4 teams that have had the rub of the green with them, theres obvioulsy gonna be some plus Greece have an easier group and NOR Ireland arent gonna make it!.

go back to our 1st game, we were VERY unlucky against the germans in stuttgart!!. no excuse for the Cyprus game, and we failed to put the San Marino lads away which nearly cost us!. slight changes in the Germany game and a win in the Cyprus game would have made all the differance!. how anyone can say its stauntons fault Cyprus hammered us is stupid, its the 11 players on the pitch, it would have been virtually the same team from any other manager and that motivation crap doesnt wash on me, these are full-grown professionals they know what they have to do themselves on the pitch!.

i never said i was happy with 3rd im saying ppl reaction to this has been so OTT its unbelievable, its like we never failed to qualify before!!.

[Noelys Guitar]

because you've named 4 teams that have had the rub of the green with them, theres obvioulsy gonna be some plus Greece have an easier group and NOR Ireland arent gonna make it!.

go back to our 1st game, we were VERY unlucky against the germans in stuttgart!!. no excuse for the Cyprus game, and we failed to put the San Marino lads away which nearly cost us!. slight changes in the Germany game and a win in the Cyprus game would have made all the differance!. how anyone can say its stauntons fault Cyprus hammered us is stupid, its the 11 players on the pitch, it would have been virtually the same team from any other manager and that motivation crap doesnt wash on me, these are full-grown professionals they know what they have to do themselves on the pitch!.

i never said i was happy with 3rd im saying ppl reaction to this has been so OTT its unbelievable, its like we never failed to qualify before!!.

Nobody who saw the German game would claim we were unlucky. Only for Given it would have been 3 or 4 nil. Your slant is way off. And trying to explain away Stans selections ie against Cyprus is laugable.

[geysir]

Stan was right about San Marino becoming a handfull later on in the group.
Did you read about their game against the Czechs

[Morbo]

go back to our 1st game, we were VERY unlucky against the germans in stuttgart!!.

Not really, true their goal was lucky but if Ireland did nick a point I think it would be fair to say on the balance of play that we would have been very lucky

how anyone can say its stauntons fault Cyprus hammered us is stupid, its the 11 players on the pitch, it would have been virtually the same team from any other manager and that motivation crap doesnt wash on me, these are full-grown professionals they know what they have to do themselves on the pitch!.

So it isn't Stauntons fault that we had Kilbane and Ireland in central midfield? Sure we had a mini injury crisis but Carsley had made himself available but Staunton stupidly refused claiming it would be unfair on the young players. Granted a lot of players had a nightmare that night but that lightweight midfield compounded our problems, I think Staunton was at least 50% responsible for that result

i never said i was happy with 3rd i'm saying ppl reaction to this has been so OTT its unbelievable, its like we never failed to qualify before!!.

Well it was been a very long time since we were this far off the pace, every other campaign we were still in it till the final match, if we went out in 3rd but fought till the last game then I could accept that but 6 points off 2nd and effectively eliminated with 3 games to go is unacceptable IMO for the team we have

[eekers]

so its okay if our players are playing in a poor league (one that hardly gives adequate preparation for international games) as long as they play a few european games.
that must be why mc geady is playing then.
how about calling up some drogheda players - i mean they have more eurpean experience than kevin doyle, richard dunne.
look at how anthony stokes tore up the scottish league whilst on loan there - the league is **** poor. the fact stokes choose joining a championship team over celtic in the january transfer window says it all.

this whole thing comes down to how much you rate the scottish league and celtic and rangers.

[SkStu]

i dont give a toss about Celtic, Rangers or the scottish league. Im not the one who introduced Scotland into the argument but one thing i am certain of is that those players play at least 8 games a season against some of the best players in the world. That improves alot of things - including confidence, tactical awareness, concentration. That they have 14 players doing that each year is a huge advantage over us and our paltry 3 representatives.

The three things i have noticed over the course of the campaign as the problem with our team? Confidence, naivety and concentration. The manager can help but these things wouldnt be as important if our players were testing themselves against the best in the world on a weekly basis.

anyway, im outta this argument. Im not gonna keep repeating myself ad nauseum to people who dont want to listen to common sense and think that it will all be magically sorted out when we sack Staunton.

enjoy bitching on this forum for a long time to come lads.

[dr_peepee]

is anyone else getting sick of this whinging?.

thread after thread of ''Stan out'' ''Delaney out'', calls for abandoning games and burning tickets,whistle protests and black t-shirts. if this is the actions of the ''best fans in the world'' its a sad state of affairs.

Is it lonely.... Up there on your pedestal!!

Stan has made errors and the players have made errors and apart from San Marino away I honestly don't think we've got anything even marginally more than we deserved in a game. The last time I remember a bit of proper luck was the Holland game in 2001. However, players make errors in a fraction of a second, Stan's errors are measured and deliberated upon, and consistent.

That's it in a nutshell. It's not about unrealistic expectations or ideas above our station. You're stance GE is similar to Delaney, but fact of the matter is there's no hypocracy here. We all questioned whether Stan was the right man to get the best out of limited players when Delaney appointed him. We've been proved right. What you're proposing is a level of apathy that will result in no accountability for those who make decisions on our behalf.

In Delaney's eyes we're all disgruntled Dundalk fans...

[Stuttgart88]

i think that Germany and the Czechs were always going to get out of this group.

I just think that the players are not there for us anymore .....

I think we'll all admit that we were at best 3rd favourites in this group but being so far adrift with 3 games to go, without a credible performance to our name is well below the standard we should be setting even with this group of players.

I have to say the RTE panel put across a very compelling dissection of Stan's failings but if Delaney is to be pressurised further rags like the Sunday Indo do us no favours. It's the only Irish paper I can get here early on a Sunday and the first thing I saw was Ricaherd Sadlier attacking Stan's HT team talk in Stuttgart as we were a goal down. We weren't a goal down at HT, it was 0-0. There were other lightweight and only superficially informed articles ("Derby County manager managing a Derby County team" - what the fcuk does that mean?). Dross like that only gives the impression there's alot of knee jerking going on. I admit mine has a bit of a twitch alright, but there's some carefully considered movement too.

[geysir]

I didn´t see Sadliers article in the on line Indo, how would he know about Stan´s 1/2 time team talk?
The one guy in this affair who comes out with total cringe value is Delaney.
Support for the manager is one thing but to use the supporters staying behind as some form of vindication. If the support were calling for the manager's head, I'm sure that twisted and selective art of 'listening to the grassroots' would be ignored.

The next 3 games have no qualification pressure but there will be a lot of focus on the teams performance, Stan's head is still on the block.
Now we have one of the best outfits (undisputed) coming next, the pressure on Stan and Delaney will not abate so easy.

[bennocelt]

I have to say the RTE panel put across a very compelling dissection of Stan's failings but if Delaney is to be pressurised further rags like the Sunday Indo do us no favours. It's the only Irish paper I can get here early on a Sunday and the first thing I saw was Ricaherd Sadlier attacking Stan's HT team talk in Stuttgart as we were a goal down. We weren't a goal down at HT, it was 0-0. There were other lightweight and only superficially informed articles ("Derby County manager managing a Derby County team" - what the fcuk does that mean?). Dross like that only gives the impression there's alot of knee jerking going on. I admit mine has a bit of a twitch alright, but there's some carefully considered movement too.

i saw those two articles, and was peeded off with sadliers too, cause he was a big supporter of Stan only a few weeks ago.........t wat
And that Derby co article was lame

But Fannings and that Sligo fellas article was ace and well worth reading
Compiling a list of Kilbanes ireland highlights would be a short DVd, etc

[mypost]

is anyone else getting sick of this whinging?.

also they have(relatively)strong domestic games so have bigger crops of players to choose from, while we have a domestic game which is starved of media attention and attendences adveraging at the 2,000 mark!. that leaves us with only a pool of players to be choose from across the pond in england!

Well, if you're sick of the whinging, you'll have to be sick of a lot more of it in the next two years, cos, it ain't going to stop.

We don't have a pool of players to choose from in England. We have an entire league at home here, to choose players from, we don't have to limit ourselves to English-based players. As I stated before, this disgraceful policy, has led to us qualifying for one of the last 7 tournaments. We are not casting our net wide enough, or using our resources fully. Instead, we're happy to play players from bad English teams, in some cases, not even getting regular football. How in the name of sanity, are they expected to perform miracles against Germany and Czech Republic??

The selection policy made 20 years ago, that disqualified LOI players from selection, was based on the Denmark model, where the manager and players would be based abroad, and playing for the top clubs which would improve their game. But the Denmark model came to it's natural end. After qualifying for the '84, '86, and '88 tournaments, they failed to qualify for the next 3 tournaments, only playing in '92 by default. The policy didn't work anymore. Germany and Czech's players play for the best teams in Europe, ours play for rubbish English sides. Rubbish players, rubbish teams, and a rubbish boss = plummeting results on the pitch, for which it can take an age to recover. Our policy seems to be "If Plan A fails, stick rigidly to plan A".

Look for our best players, here and abroad, get the right boss for the job with no conditions on his nationality, change tactics if necessary. If you're facing a tough away match, it's not a 4-4-2 formation you play. If the players can't play to the formation required, chuck 'em out and find players who can.

I'm sick of hearing about the "limited" players we have. We have the players, so go out and play them. Pick the best players available for the game, not the tried, and failed formula every time.

Another thing, we are currently 3rd in the group. However, we could end up as low as 6th come the end of it. Even San Marino kept the score in Cyprus down to 3.

[Stuttgart88]

Gordon Sunderland
Hutton Rangers
McManus Celtic
Weir Rangers
Alexander Derby County
McCulloch Rangers
Ferguson Rangers
Fletcher Man United Reserves
Brown Celtic
Hartley Celtic
McFadden Everton

Pearson Derby County
O'Connor Birmingham
McGregor Rangers
McEveley Derby County
Caldwell Celtic
Boyd Rangers
Maloney Aston Villa

Out of curiosity, does anyone know how many of these players played for Scotland in their "future squad" or whatever it was called in that 5 team pan-european mini league their were involved in over the last 2 years?

[Stuttgart88]

Answering my own question:

Gordon Sunderland*
Hutton Rangers
McManus Celtic
Weir Rangers
Alexander Derby County*
McCulloch Rangers
Ferguson Rangers
Fletcher Man United Reserves*
Brown Celtic
Hartley Celtic*
McFadden Everton*

Pearson Derby County
O'Connor Birmingham*
McGregor Rangers
McEveley Derby County
Caldwell Celtic*
Boyd Rangers*
Maloney Aston Villa*


FUTURE CUP 2005

Tuesday, 7 December, 2004
Germany 3, Scotland 0
Scotland: Soutar (Dundee) (sub McGregor (Rangers) 45), Diamond (Aberdeen) (sub Corrigan (Motherwell) 53), Murray (Hibernian), McNaughton (Aberdeen), Virgo (Brighton), Malcolm (Rangers, capt), Wilson (Dunfermline Athletic), Hartley (Heart of Midlothian) (sub Nicholson (Dunfermline Athletic) 60), O’Connor (Hibernian), Smith (Den Haag), Lynch (Preston North End) (sub McDonald (Kilmarnock) 60).
Referee: Levan Paniashvili (Georgia).

Tuesday, 19 April, 2005
Austria 2, Scotland 1
Scotland: Gordon (Heart of Midlothian) (sub Brown (Inverness Caledonian Thistle) 64), McCunnie (Ross County) (sub Berra (Heart of Midlothian) 76), Watt (Chelsea), Webster (Heart of Midlothian), Murray (Hibernian), Smith (Den Haag), Severin (Aberdeen), McDonald (Kilmarnock), Sweeney (Millwall) (sub Fotheringham (Dundee) 64), Parkin (Swindon Town) (sub Maloney (Celtic) 23), Beattie (Celtic).

Tuesday, 6 December, 2005
Scotland 2, Poland 0
Scotland: Marshall (Celtic) (sub Combe (Kilmarnock) 46), Neilson (Heart of Midlothian), Greer (Kilmarnock), Virgo (Celtic) (sub Berra (Heart of Midlothian) 70), Hay (Kilmarnock) (sub Wallace (Celtic) 63), Teale (Wigan Athletic), Montgomery (Sheffield United), McDonald (Kilmarnock) (sub McAllister (Heart of Midlothian) 46), Robson (Dundee United) (sub Kerr (Dundee United) 63), Duffy (Falkirk) (sub Miller (Dundee United) 46), Boyd (Kilmarnock).


Wednesday, 15 March, 2006
Scotland 2, Turkey 3
Scotland: Brown (Inverness CT) (sub Turner (Everton) 46), Corrigan (Motherwell, capt), Hammell (Motherwell), Virgo (Celtic) (sub McNamee (Livingston) 66), Berra (Hearts), Robson (Dundee Utd) (sub Rankin (Ross County) 75), Naismith (Kilmarnock) (sub Black (Inverness CT) 46), Kerr (Motherwell), Miller (Dundee Utd), Dargo (Inverness CT) (sub Duffy (Hull City) 46), McIndoe (Doncaster).

20 May 2003
Scotland 2, Northern Ireland 1
Scotland: Gallacher (Dundee Utd) (sub Arthur (Partick Thistle) 46), Alexander (Preston NE), Naysmith (Everton), Dailly (West Ham Utd, capt), S. Caldwell (Newcastle Utd) (sub Fletcher (Manchester Utd) 59), G. Caldwell (Newcastle Utd), Devlin (Birmingham City), Kerr (Newcastle Utd), Kyle (Sunderland) (sub Lynch (Preston NE) 86), Hutchison (West Ham Utd) (sub Gray (Bradford City) 70), McFadden (Motherwell) (sub Ross (Rangers) 46).