Why Ireland are Crap at Soccer

[Stuttgart88]

True, but it is an important position.

Some of my thoughts, in no particular order:

• Yes, we’re a small country so we’ll always be up against it statistically, but we’ve brought through quality players in the past, have a few at the moment and have some coming through. It takes a bit of a fluke to bring through a whole bunch at any one time. Even the big countries find this. In the past we’ve been able to rely on the granny rule to fill key gaps, but an improving economy turns off the emigration tap so it’s unlikely we’ll ever see the same number of Irish eligible UK born players as we saw in the 70s/80s/90s.
  
• A stronger domestic league would complement the existing trend of young kids going to the UK on apprentice schemes. Personally I think it’s unlikely one of our first choice internationals will at the time be playing LOI, but playing in a good LOI is already being seen as an alternative to trying your luck in the UK lower leagues.
  
• We’re unlikely to ever have the bulk of our team playing regularly for the best sides in England. Only Finnan really fits this bill, then maybe Robbie and Duff who more than held his own at Chelsea. Given is good enough, Dunne maybe and Doyle could get there. Then again, the countries we’re competing with (second tier and third tier countries) are hardly well represented at these clubs either, but they do have players playing at the top of the second tier leagues in Europe. As a respected poster over on chatsoccer frequently cites, how can you play internationals with players who don’t play internationally?
  
• It's a global game / industry and like any Irish exporter struggling to cope with intense foreign competition we should find new markets or better develop the home market. A more competitive home market and other European markets are required to fill the gaps in my opinion.
  
• International football is on the wane in terms of its influence in the overall scheme of things. In club vs country conflicts there’ll only ever be one winner. I think the big showpiece finals apart, the governing bodies could do more to re-establish international football as the pinnacle of the sport.
  
• Vanity investors taking their money to the UK rather that investing it at home doesn’t help. I know the late 70s Shamrock Rovers venture failed (Giles aiming for UEFA Cup success, ex-anglos returning home…) but it’d be interesting to see a few of the Irish mega rich investing at home. I mean if Peterborough is seen as an attractive investment for Darragh MacAnthony, why not a LOI club?
  
• Is the system really that badly broken anyway? An injury-time equaliser, a very late miss by Keane, a deflected goal conceded in Stuttgart, a late miss by Dunne, missing a 2 time CL finalist full back, missing or not having a match sharp Given for critical games, a stubborn manager who doesn’t really understand how to set out a team & who fails to learn some pretty obvious lessons from other games, and we’re still (nominally) in contention to qualify?

[Torn-Ado]

If we held out for one minute on Saturday, this thread wouldn't even have existed.

Thats the sad thing.

[endabob1]

There are so many discussions going on here it's hard to know where to start but as has been pointed out there are 3 main elements to "Football in this country"
1 - Junior/Under age football
2 - National League
3 - National Team

I honestly think that if our under age system and our National League improve it will inevitably improve the national team. The best players will always look to go overseas to bigger leagues where there is more money but is it unrealistic to look for a 10 team top flight with attendances of Circa 10k at each of the 5 games on a weekend? To me that would be a sustainable league that would be generating sufficient cash to keep players from leaving at 16.
For me the FAI would do a lot worse than to look at the centre of excellence that the FA set up at Lilleshall to develop young players. It has since been abandoned as the EPL clubs want players to remain in their own acadameys
but A proper centre of excellence with top class coahing (Liam Brady would be an ideal candidate) where players would live in and can be developed would go a long way to improving the underage teams and in turn these players would feed into the national league which would improve the standard of the league.

[Dodge]

[*]Is the system really that badly broken anyway? ...we’re still (nominally) in contention to qualify?[/LIST]

The problem with that is that the relative success of the international team has masked the massive problems with in Irish football.

The point you make that the LOI is never really going to provide the players to the international team is true. However, a strong LOI would raise the general level of players from Ireland, and particularly give young Irish players a far more appealing environment in which to see if they really are good enough for the premiership etc.

Of course the cream of Irish talent will head to bigger leagues, but that’s the cae with most small European nations (Holland, Sweden, Denmark). Denmark has a population of 5.5million. Their football clubs regularly get 10-15k at each game. The Belgium crowds average something similar. No LOI fan thinks we should be getting 20-30k per game but if the league averaged 7-10k at every game, there's no doubt Irish football, as a whole, would improve.

[tetsujin1979]

The problem with that is that the relative success of the international team has masked the massive problems with in Irish football.

The point you make that the LOI is never really going to provide the players to the international team is true. However, a strong LOI would raise the general level of players from Ireland, and particularly give young Irish players a far more appealing environment in which to see if they really are good enough for the premiership etc.

Of course the cream of Irish talent will head to bigger leagues, but that’s the cae with most small European nations (Holland, Sweden, Denmark). Denmark has a population of 5.5million. Their football clubs regularly get 10-15k at each game. The Belgium crowds average something similar. No LOI fan thinks we should be getting 20-30k per game but if the league averaged 7-10k at every game, there's no doubt Irish football, as a whole, would improve.

Could you really see that many people going to LOI games?
I don't think we have the population centres to sustain that over a season.

[Dodge]

Could you really see that many people going to LOI games?
I don't think we have the population centres to sustain that over a season.

As I pointed out, Denmark have a population of 5.5m and Copenhagen get average crowds of 23k, Odense get averages of 10k. Only reason LOI games aren't well attended is that football fans look to the UK first (facilities play a part but thats obviously part of the vicious money circle)

[tetsujin1979]

As I pointed out, Denmark have a population of 5.5m and Copenhagen get average crowds of 23k, Odense get averages of 10k. Only reason LOI games aren't well attended is that football fans look to the UK first (facilities play a part but thats obviously part of the vicious money circle)

Fair enough, according to wikipedia, Odense has a population of 150,000 making it between Cork and Limerick in terms of population, but does soccer have any other major competitors for attendance, equivalent to GAA and Rugby in Limerick and Cork?
Copenhagen has a population in or around 1.8m, making it about the same as Dublin, but are Copenhagen the only club side there, i.e. are there 5 or 6 clubs in the area all vying for attendance? Again, there's GAA and Rugby in Dublin, does Copenhagen have the same attractions?
Money comes into it too, I went to 5 of Limerick's GAA games this year, all the home soccer internationals, Limerick 37 games, underage internationals, I would have gone to the rugby if I could have laid my hands on tickets, and made it to some of Munster's home games in Thomond Park, but I realise eventually something there will give, there's no way I can go on attending all these games.
For many people, GAA will traditionally come first, in places rugby is the main sport, for some LOI is the only way to go, but for a majority given the choice, it will be last.

[Torn-Ado]

Fair enough, according to wikipedia, Odense has a population of 150,000 making it between Cork and Limerick in terms of population, but does soccer have any other major competitors for attendance, equivalent to GAA and Rugby in Limerick and Cork?
Copenhagen has a population in or around 1.8m, making it about the same as Dublin, but are Copenhagen the only club side there, i.e. are there 5 or 6 clubs in the area all vying for attendance? Again, there's GAA and Rugby in Dublin, does Copenhagen have the same attractions?
Money comes into it too, I went to 5 of Limerick's GAA games this year, all the home soccer internationals, Limerick 37 games, underage internationals, I would have gone to the rugby if I could have laid my hands on tickets, and made it to some of Munster's home games in Thomond Park, but I realise eventually something there will give, there's no way I can go on attending all these games.
For many people, GAA will traditionally come first, in places rugby is the main sport, for some LOI is the only way to go, but for a majority given the choice, it will be last.

Brondby and FC Copenhagen are the two main teams in the city

[Stuttgart88]

the vicious money circle

Will Bohs' windfall have an effect?

What would / could happen if another Derry City situation came about., i.e., out of nowhere a team brings thousands to away games and has huge attendances at home? Could the game take advantage this time?

I went to Wasps vs Leinster last April or whenever and among the Leinster "ultras" were soccer supporting mates of mine from Tallaght and other parts of Dublin who just loved being part of a vociferous and decent sized support who actually had a half-decent / important spectacle to watch. These guys would be out at Rovers in a flash if Cork or Derry or whoever were to bring a few thousand fans along to a game.

[Dodge]

These guys would be out at Rovers in a flash if Cork or Derry or whoever were to bring a few thousand fans along to a game.

I don't think fans in Dublin would every come out to see the away team, or their fans.

And BTW we're Richer than Bohs

For many people, GAA will traditionally come first, in places rugby is the main sport, for some LOI is the only way to go, but for a majority given the choice, it will be last.

In Dublin the GAA ranks down the list of people's interests. In fact I only know one person who if asked what his favourite sport is would say GAA. The problem is that they all support British teams. I have no doubt that football is the number one sport in practically the whole country. Obviously LOI football isn't

Your point about money may ring through if people didn't spend €100 easily on a night out for themselves. They choose not to spend their money on going to football, but in reality, its not that expensive (and certainly not as expensive as going to Dublin GAA games or Leinster rugby)

[Marked Man]

Hmmmm, let me think. "Why Ireland hasn't won the World Cup?". A population of a few million, most of whom play the national game, Gaelic football or hurling and where playing soccer by them was banned up to a decade or so ago.

The ban was lifted in 1971, 36 years ago Owlsfan. Not "a decade or so ago."

[youngirish]

Other than Holland, I am struggling to think of a country of comparable size that has achieved anything of note in world or European football.

Holland has 4 times our population so in a footballing sense we can't really be compared to them.

[tetsujin1979]

In Dublin the GAA ranks down the list of people's interests. In fact I only know one person who if asked what his favourite sport is would say GAA. The problem is that they all support British teams. I have no doubt that football is the number one sport in practically the whole country. Obviously LOI football isn't

Your point about money may ring through if people didn't spend €100 easily on a night out for themselves. They choose not to spend their money on going to football, but in reality, its not that expensive (and certainly not as expensive as going to Dublin GAA games or Leinster rugby)

Dublin regularly sell out Croke Park, that's 80,000+ fans. How many of them go to any of the Dublin-based soccer teams? How many of the teams based in Dublin sell out with the same regularity, even with stadiums with vastly reduced capacities compared to Croke Park?

[jebus]

For a country with such a small population we have done reasonably well in world football, so I wouldn't say Ireland are crap at football.

Don't know if anyone made this point previously as I stopped reading after the first post

[paul_oshea]

The GAA is crap, full of ignorant culchies.

[endabob1]

The GAA is crap, full of ignorant culchies.

Beautiful, nothing like a sweeping generalisation to show how superior you really are.

[Stuttgart88]

Have you met Paul? He's an ignorant culchie.

[Torn-Ado]

Beautiful, nothing like a sweeping generalisation to show how superior you really are.

I think he was joking.

Not sure though.

[osarusan]

The GAA is crap, full of ignorant culchies.

I think you need a smilie for the sarcasm .

[paul_oshea]

Torn, It was done in jest, in an ironic twist really. As when the GAA gets mentioned, someone usually comes on and says something along those lines, so I thought I might as well get in there first.

I think you need a smilie for the sarcasm .

Not, if you are not being sarcastic.

Stuts, good to see you know me so well