NFL/NCAA 2007 thread

[Soko]

As for Troy Smith, he was no fraud. One poor game in the post season can't take away from the body of work he had put together before that. The Heisman isn't about who has the best NFL potential, it's about who was the best player in College Football in a given year. This year that's Tebow, last year it was Troy Smith. Two very different players but both thoroughly deserving of the award at a particular time.

Troy Smith demeaned the Heisman. He was the product of being the QB on the nations only unbeaten team at the time of voting and had several poor games before the NC game. Last year was a poor year for elite players but Smith should never have gotten it based upon his regular season play. Nothing to do with potential, he was did not play at a Heisman level. I could have played behind that line, defense and schedule. Should have given it to McFadden


McFadden is the outstanding player in CFB imo. He has everything. At least this years Heisman will be someone who won't embarrass the name

[OneRedArmy]

Smith (like Danny Wuerffel in the past, it really is all about Florida!) was able to be a standout in college without ever being likely to make it is the pros.

I'd find it hard to argue that there was anyone much better last season, and his collapse in the title game was after he was awarded the game.

Strong argument, now that bowl games are becoming more and more important, that the Heisman be delayed until the true end of the season.

Here's the stats between the three contenders mentioned:

Tebow (Florida)
Yards 3,132
Passing TDs 29
Ints 6
Rushing Yards 838
Rushing TDs 22

Chase Daniel (Mizzou)
Yards 3,951
Passing TDs 33
Ints 9
Rushing Yards 258
Rushing TDs 3

Darren McFadden (Arkansas)
Rushing Yards 1,725
Rushing TDs 15
Passing Yards 123
Passing TDs 4

Soko, you realise that you are proposing giving it to a RB that has 7 RUSHING TDs less than Tebow (never mind his 3,000 yards passing?!)

Tebow has more rushing TDs this season than 5 Heisman trophy winning RB's!!!

[Soko]

I think McFadden is the most outstanding player in college football. If you saw his performance agaisnt USC then you wouldn't have any qualms about giving him the Heisman either


Tebow will probably get it and it will be deserved. McFadden is still a deserving candidate though


Troy Smith didn't really standout in college. He benefited from a weak class where Quinn faded away and people were too afraid to vote for McFadden

[Aberdonian Stu]

Smith had a great regular season last year and in no way demeaned the award, not that it's actual easy to demean the Heisman seeing as it's a rather odd little entity in its own right (I recommend reading the excellent Bowls, Polls and Tattered Souls by Stewart Mandel to get a better understanding of why that is, that goes for everyone). The McFadden fear argument would hold some weight if he got a decent percentage of the votes like Peterson did when he lost out to Leinart but far and wide Smith was acknowledged as the most outstanding player in what was a weak year for outstanding talent. Had Vince Young or Reggie Bush come back for a senior season they probably would have smacked him around in the balloting but they didn't and so the door was left open for him.

As for the 'anyone could do it' argument just look at Chad Henne. He had a better running back in Mike Hart and a superstar receiver of his own in Mario Manningham, not to mention a D that ensured he was rarely off the field, and yet he still paled in comparison to Smith.

This year McFadden has played better than Smith did last year but unfortunately for him Tebow has gone a step further.

[OneRedArmy]

McFadden is the outstanding player in CFB

He's not even the best player in the SEC.

But agree that this years contenders are much stronger.

[Soko]

He's not even the best player in the SEC.

Nice dramatization. Name 1 player better than McFadden in your opinion not named Tim Tebow


Troy Smith managed his games well on a ridiculously easy schedule. He had a couple of great plays and voters lazily deemed him the outstanding player in CFB. Making players like Smith Heisman winners does demean the award

[OneRedArmy]

I wasn't trying to be (that) facetious.

What I was trying to get at was that McFadden is at a huge disadvantage as when two players play in the same conference they play against the same teams and against each other, making them easier to compare and ultimately easier to assess as who is a better player (unlike say, Colt Brennan, who Dodge mentioned, who will always suffer by playing for a school in a Mickey Mouse conference, regardless of how good he is).

On the basis most people view Tebow as a better player than McFadden, having seen them play the same opponents, McFaddens only chance lies in him being an upperclassman.

[Soko]

I don't buy that argument. They play different schedules and play different positions. Simply lumping them both in as SEC players doesn't make Tebow rise head and shoulders above McFadden


This thing is not as cut and dry as you make it out to be either. Just because Tebow has had a record breaking season, doesn't mean McFadden can't win the Heisman. His best games against LSU and USC were out of this world performances, playing teams which keyed on the run. He's a number pick if Miami didn't have an player there already

[OneRedArmy]

He's a number pick if Miami didn't have an player there already

There you go again, trying to justify a college players career by referring to their draft position.

The pros are a different game. Different offense, different defense. The only similarity is that they are both called football.

For every Troy Smith, I'll find you 5 Tony Romos.

[Soko]

There you go again, trying to justify a college players career by referring to their draft position.

The pros are a different game. Different offense, different defense. The only similarity is that they are both called football.

For every Troy Smith, I'll find you 5 Tony Romos.

Where else did I mention draft position? You are the wonder of strawman arguments

He is a number 1 pick = outstanding football player. Outstanding in college. Heisman winner

There is very little projecting when it comes to RBs like him. He has everything that an elite back needs and that is why he is, imo, the outstanding player in CFB this year. So good that he could be a number 1 overall pick in the draft. And then you start your strawman debate. Pointless

[Aberdonian Stu]

Firstly on his number one pick potential, elite College RBs tend to flop more in the NFL than they succeed, it doesn't make them any less of a player it just means that different horses are suited to different courses. Of the the top 50 running backs in rushing stats this season in the NFL 30 didn't go in the first 2 rounds of the draft. That said despite the presence of Ronnie Brown I wouldn't rule out the Dolphins taking a shot at him, though they have much bigger needs.

I'd hardly call it a strawman argument being put forward seeing as you did mention the draft. The Heisman should have nothing to do with what a player might do in the future and the only reflection past seasons have on it is name recognition. It's about one year and one year only. This year Tim Tebow has put together one of the best years, not just statistically, of any player in history. In any other year in recent times, with the possible exception of two years ago, McFadden would have done enough but not this time sadly. I really like him as a player and as a leader on the field but I'm not too worried for him as he's a lock for the Doak Walker award which is a pretty good consolation prize.

[Soko]

My only mention of the draft was to emphasize how good a player McFadden has been in college. So good that he could be a number 1 overall pick. Any use of Peter King articles and talk of justifying people's college careers is hyperbole you two are making up in your heads

[Aberdonian Stu]

In College McFadden has put together a tremendous body of work but the Heisman is based on a given year. Like I said in any other given year this year's performance would probably have sufficed for McFadden but this year his superhuman efforts were outdone by Tebow. Also if Tebow was eligible to declare I'd say he'd have as many people salivating, if not more, than McFadden as it's just plain harder to find good QBs.

As an aside King, who I am a big fan of, seems to be a complete flip flopper when it comes to RBs. On one hand he gave the stat I quoted above yet either in the same article or the next day (I've forgotten which) mocked Atlanta for drafting Vick over LaDainian Tomlinson a few years back. This from the man that doesn't want to spend first rounders on RBs.

Obviously in hindsight that was a bad call but hello this is the draft we're talking about, sure when LT was being drafted he was seen by all and sundry as a good running back that didn't really catch passes. Oh how that changed!

[OneRedArmy]

Personally I still think the key stat is that Tebow has 7 rushing TDs more than McFadden.

So he's arguably a better rusher, never mind a QB.

Simplistic argument, but compelling.

Anyway, done this one to death!

On to the Packers v Cowboys tonight. Monster game.

[strangeirish]

Personally I still think the key stat is that Tebow has 7 rushing TDs more than McFadden.

So he's arguably a better rusher, never mind a QB.

Simplistic argument, but compelling.

Anyway, done this one to death!

On to the Packers v Cowboys tonight. Monster game.

My money is on the Packers. They have a superior secondary and I'm not so sure Romo can handle the spotlight. It should be a cracker, if he plays well.

[OneRedArmy]

I think Romo has to crack for the Packers to win.

And I think he will.

[Dodge]

For every Troy Smith, I'll find you 5 Tony Romos.

Undrafted star quarter backs? Romo, Kurt Warner and who else?

[OneRedArmy]

Undrafted star quarter backs? Romo, Kurt Warner and who else?

Undrafted obviously takes it to the extreme. How about non-top 3 or 3 rounds of the draft.

Off the top of my head I'd guess draft position is a lousy correlator for how well a QB will do in the pros.

[Soko]

For every fifth round QB buried on the depth chart, you'll find 5 undrafted starting QBs?


I'm sure Jake Delhomme was undrafted. Most of the starters are high picks though or at the very least developmental ones

[OneRedArmy]

So its odds on the Cowboys in the NFC now and Favre's starting streak is in danger of ending.

360 odd yards of offense put GB in a good position but the defence just couldn't stop Romo.