NI boss targets Republic's Gibson

[shakermaker1982]

I hope Stan sends Gibson on tonight for a run out (after hearing from FIFA - don't want us getting points deducted!) and it's the end of this matter. Worthington can then concentrate on getting N Iron to Switzerland/Austria next year, whilst Gibson blossoms into the greatest player since Zidane!!!

[Supreme feet]

Gibson has been representing the Republic in competitive international underage tournaments for a few years now, without objection. His transition from underage to 'B' international to senior has been smooth, and unsullied by controversy or interference - until now.

The IFA, and Worthington in particular, have stirred the issue, but it seems significant to me that through all this debate, we have ammassed nothing but speculation and (biased) opinion. If someone from the Northern side can present and quote official FIFA regulations concerning citizenship that expressly deny Gibson from playing for Ireland, then the argument may well be valid.

In an earlier post, I quoted a line from the good Friday Agreement which, as I interpret it, guarantees joint citizenship for Irish/Northern Irish residents. Is citizenship not the issue?

Gibson has played in U-17 tournaments for Ireland, and FIFA have remained laissez-faire. Darron Gibson is a current Republic of Ireland international. Unless somebody with a good legal brain can prove otherwise, I will continue to think of him as such.

[youngirish]

EalingGreen I've been honestly trying to see your side of the argument and I am in fact sympathetic to the problem where some of the players born in your province wish to play for the Republic but I must state that looking at some of the postings on the subject you and most of your mates on ourweecountry.com are seriously the most stubborn, deluded and unreasonable bunch of posters I have ever had the misfortune to come across.

You seem to state that being born in a place is the defining trait of one's nationality yet you fail to mention:
1. There is no country called Northern Ireland in the first place.
2. Being born in a place is simply one aspect of many that determine nationality and is often not the most important.
3. Every team in world football (including your own) and in sports in general is littered with people that represent countries they were not born within the boundaries of.

A quote I like from you is that 'personal political convictions should not be a consideration when deciding someones nationality'. So what should be then? Financial gain? Career enchancement? Place were you were born even if you never lived there for any length of time? C'mon get real ffs.

You also annoyingly bring up the case of the Qatar football team and it's Brazilian imports on an increasingly regular basis yet this has no relevance whatsoever in anyone's eyes in the current universe which we inhabit to Gibson's case. What has this to do with Darron Gibson?

I also see the thread on ourweecountry.com addressing the same issue has degenerated into slating a perfectly reasonable poster who had some decent facts just because he didn't agree with some of the bigots. Unreal.

Take my advice expand your horizons and stop associating with the same ignorant, stubborn and small minded brigade that like to frequent that other forum. Then you might actually start to understand the concepts logic, freewill, compromise and reason.

[osarusan]

I also see the thread on ourweecountry.com addressing the same issue has degenerated into slating a perfectly reasonable poster who had some reasonable facts just because he didn't agree with some of the bigots. Unreal.

And in the same post you say this.

you and most of your mates on ourweecountry.com are seriously the most stubborn, deluded and unreasonable bunch of posters I have ever had the misfortune to come across.

Take my advice expand your horizons and stop associating with the same ignorant, stubborn and small minded brigade that like to frequent that other forum. Then you might actually start to understand the concepts logic, freewill, compromise and reason.

And in another post.....

Surely even EalingGreen and his North Korean mates from ourweecountry.com living in the fantasyland

[Supreme feet]

OK, last post. I'm driving myself up the wall.

From espn, june 21; 'A number of players were able to play for a country as long as they lived there but their citizenship ended if they moved away from that country,' FIFA spokesman Andreas Herren said.

'This new ruling, in effect, protects the players. If a good young player was to leave a small club in one country for a big club in another country and lost his right of citizenship, he would also jeopardise his international career.

'All any country has to do is grant that player full unconditional citizenship and he is eligible to play for that country whether he lives there or not.'

Good Friday Agreement; "The birthright of all the people of Northern Ireland to identify themselves and be accepted as Irish or British, or both, as they may so choose, and accordingly confirm that their right to hold both British and Irish citizenship is accepted by both Governments and would not be affected by any future change in the status of Northern Ireland."

I rest my case.

[youngirish]

And in the same post you say this.




And in another post.....

Instead of being trying to be all PC about it read the ourweecountry thread and see if you come to the same inclusion. It's not the same at all. I never stated all or even most NI fans fall into this category or even all posters on ourweecounrty.com. But a large proportion of the latter undoubtedly do.

EalingGreen is being totally unreasonable on this subject and that's why I'm pulling him up. We disagree on many subjects and he doesn't get slated.

[paul_oshea]

can someone call up a favour in FIFA and get he/she to sign up on here and post what FIFA stipulates on this matter.

Credit to EalingGreen though, he can manipulate any post he wants, which he does quite well, but what exactly are they waiting for from FIFA? I mean he has represented Ireland for many years and is in our senior team, if anything were to change it would have happened by now. Which leads me to my next point, if gibson had faded into the abyss and was "useless", yet wanted to play for ireland and had done at underage, EG wouldn't be here at all.

Ah well, optimism can be blind, but having optimism can make you beleive you might see again.

[geysir]

'All any country has to do is grant that player full unconditional citizenship and he is eligible to play for that country whether he lives there or not.'
I rest my case.

This FIFA quote is in reference to 2 players who were given partial citizenship by the Israeli gov which would have ended should the 2 players leave the country. FIFA told them in no uncertain terms to feck off with the partial citizenship and give the players full citizenship rights.
FIFA do not have a one size rule fits all. They take each situation individually and apply the criteria usually to support the player.

[paul_oshea]

FIFA told them in no uncertain terms to feck off with the partial citizenship and give the players full citizenship rights.

Did they really say that? I never knew that the irish had spread there colloquial terms that far afield, and mores the point that it was so popular!

[Supreme feet]

Well if the aim is to support the player, then Gibson will be fine.

[cheifo]

Ealing Green you dontget many compliments on here but in fairness your post is well worded and I dont believe you or Steve Bruce and the rest of the Northern lads who come on here are any more prejudiced than the rest of us.
However the lad wants to play for Ireland and imo should be allowed to.

[paul_oshea]

Ealing Green you dontget many compliments on here but in fairness your post is well worded and I dont believe you or Steve Bruce and the rest of the Northern lads who come on here are any more prejudiced than the rest of us.
However the lad wants to play for Ireland and imo should be allowed to.

He doesn't get any insults either, but he does get fair-minded discussion. There have been very few negative comments about him, but plenty about his post, which is fair enough its a forum for discussion after all!

I think what you might be refering to is the fact that no matter what anyone says he keeps coming back with the same rhetoric, which to me sometimes comes across a bit desperate and clutching at straws, but im not insulting him or his integrity!

[geysir]

Did they really say that? I never knew that the irish had spread there colloquial terms that far afield, and mores the point that it was so popular!

one word,
Father Ted.

[paul_oshea]

one word,
Father Ted.

thats two?!

[geysir]

you don't say

[cavan_fan]

To continue the EG love in.

Maybe it's because I'm a fellow Ulsterman but I generally dont disagree with EG any more than other posters. I do have to ask though where he gets the time for such monumental posts!

The worry I have around the DG situation is this: A number of countries would love to 'buy' an international team, esp teams in the Middle East as we have seen in Athletics. We cannot allow Qatar to buy a team of Brazilians. Now the thing that has stopped them is that generally players playing for you have to have been born in your territory (or parents/grandparents). The move to a citizenship focus is dangerous. Any country can create any rule regarding citizenship. The Israeli example being referred to was thrown out because the citizenship only applied as long as the people lived in the country. However if you were Qatar you could get aroudn this by giving permanent citizenship to any Brazilian who has played professional football. The prosepct of international teams being bought like this depresses me more than any other in football.

Into this comes the DG situation. The only reason DG is eligible for us is becasue of the fact we have given citizenship to all people born in NI. ( I think this is admirable by the way). The problem for FIFA is how do they distinguish between this and Qatar wanting to give citizenship to BRazilian footballers. I see 3 possible solutions:

You can only play people not born in the territory if their citizenship is agreed with the country the person is born in (The UK has agreed to the rule but I would guess Brazil would not)

You can only play if the rule giving you citizenship is applied to all people in the other association. (I would guess Qatar dont want to give citizenship to all Brazilians)

Or FIFA hold a list of sepcial cases, the onyl ones I can think off are NI/ROI, Israel and Jordan(?) and possibly for Croats born in Serbia etc.

If the choice is between a rule saying you must be born in the territory or one saying any country can give citizenship to anyone else I'd go for the former and sympathise with Gibson etc.

[as_i_say]

There is a Palestinian team as recognized by FIFA. Similar cr@p to the north-its not a real country so I presume the rules are different.

[RogerMilla]

in fairness the lads from the north who want to represent us have their rights enshrined in a few international treaties , they have a far more legal basis to be recognised than a couple of brazilian chancers looking for a few quid. As many lads from up there have represented us then i see no reason why uefa or fifa will ever rock the boat on the issue, it will most likely be left to the individual to decide.

[geysir]

The problem for FIFA is how do they distinguish between this and Qatar wanting to give citizenship to BRazilian footballers. I see 3 possible solutions:

There is no real problem there because FIFA sniffed out a stroke being pulled and put a full stop to that by requiring at least 2 years residency.
FIFA appear to examine different arbitration issues on an individual basis.
All changes in national declaration have to be first reviewed by a FIFA committee where everything is checked out.

Generally there is no problem with a country that gives full citizen rights to citizens that are born and grow up in another football federation area.
FIFA recognises the rights of Irish citizens born in NI, Croats born in Serbia and Bosnians born in Croatia et.c. to declare for their country without having lived there.
There would be a storm of discontent all over the FIFA world if they messed around with that.

[EalingGreen]

Well in that case there should be no England, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. Just a British team so. According to you [ i.e. Ealing Green] all rulings should be made " with regard to their Rules and Regs".
You cant have it both ways. The rules are been interpreted on there individual merits. Northern Ireland/Ireland are a special case as are the british teams.

Having basically stated my opinion on this matter, I have neither the time or inclination to restate it - people must accept it or not.

However, on a point of information, FIFA's Regs apply equally to all Members, unless an exception/exemption is specified. One such example is the status of the four British Associations:

Article 10 Admission

1 Any Association which is responsible for organising and supervising football in its country may become a Member of FIFA. In this context, the expression “country" shall refer to an independent state recognised by the international community. Subject to par. 5 and par. 6 below, only one Association shall be recognised in each country.

5 Each of the four British Associations is recognised as a separate Member of FIFA.

6 An Association in a region which has not yet gained independence may, with the authorisation of the Association in the country on which it is dependent, also apply for admission to FIFA

Regarding international player eligibility, there is NO exception/exemption specified for Irish players (either Association), therefore Gibson must satisfy FIFA that his eligibility for the ROI derives from the existing Regs.

And as regards these, the FAI is (presumably) depending on the following:

VII. ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY FOR ASSOCIATION TEAMS
Article 15 Principle
1 Any person holding the nationality of a country is eligible to play for
the representative teams of the Association of that country. The
Executive Committee shall decide on the conditions of eligibility
for any Player who has not played international football in accordance
with par. 2 below, and either acquires a new nationality or is
eligible to play for the teams of more than one Association due to
his nationality.
2 With the exception of the conditions specified in par. 3 and 4 below,
any Player who has already represented one Association in a match
(either in full or in part) in an official competition of any category or
any type of football may not play an international match for a representative
team of another Association.
3 If a Player has more than one nationality, or if a Player acquires a new
nationality, or if a Player is eligible to play for several Associations’
teams due to nationality, he may, up to his 21st birthday, request
to change the Association for which he is eligible to play international
matches to the Association of another country of which he
holds nationality, subject to the following conditions:
(a) He has not played a match (either in full or in part) at “A” international
level for his current Association, and if at the time of his
first full or partial appearance in an international match in an
official competition for his current Association, he already had
the nationality of the Association’s team for which he wishes to
play.
(b) He is not permitted to play for his new Association in any competition
in which he has already played for his previous Association.
A player may exercise this right only once.


Whereas, the IFA (presumably) considers that the above definition is now (since the Qatari/Brazilian case) required to be augmented by the following requirement:

ANNEX 2
ELIGIBILITY TO PLAY FOR ASSOCIATION TEAMS FOR PLAYERS WHOSE
NATIONALITY ENTITLES THEM TO REPRESENT MORE THAN ONE ASSOCIATION
Article 1 Conditions
1. A player who, under the terms of Art. 15 of the Regulations Governing
the Application of the FIFA Statutes, is eligible to represent more
than one Association on account of his nationality, may play in an
international match for one of these Associations only if, in addition to
having the relevant nationality, he fulfils at least one of the following
conditions:
a) he was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
b ) his biological mother or biological father was born on the territory
of the relevant Association;
c) his grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the
relevant Association;
d) he has lived on the territory of the relevant Association for at least
two years without interruption.

Therefore, if you go solely by Paragraph 1 of Article XV, then Gibson is OK to play for the ROI.

However, if the Article 1 Conditions of Annex 2 also need to be applied, then Gibson is ineligible.

And I have no doubt that when FIFA framed Annex 2 (in response to the Qatari/Brazilian business), that they never even considered that Irish Nationality might constitute a "grey area".

Therefore, I feel they require to make a policy decision as to whether people in Gibson's situation are subject to Annex 2, just like every other player, or whether his situation is exceptional, either by inference from or interpretation of the existing regs, or following the granting of a specific exemption/exception.

And it is also my guess that this policy decision is not an easy one, otherwise they would have nailed it down one way or another long before now.