NI boss targets Republic's Gibson

[Not Brazil]

And you have absolutely no evidence that it wasn't. I know the argument is usually innocent until proven guilty, but seeing as it occurred at an NI game most people would naturally assume that it was NI fans.

Let's stick with "innocent until guilty" eh?

If assumption is to be the basis of guilt, I'm not so sure that's a path any of us want to go down.

Happy with me making the following assumptions, are you?

Black members of the ROI squad receive telephone threats. Therefore, it must have been a Republic Of Ireland fan. Therefore, Republic Of Ireland fans are racist. Therefore I couldn't go to a Republic Of Ireland game.

Nah - didn't think so!

Assumption is not a good basis for conviction - hard evidence is required. You, nor nobody else, has any evidence whatsoever that a Northern Ireland fan (s) was responsible.

The death threat didn't happen "at a Northern Ireland game".

The phonecall was made from a phonebox miles from any Northern Ireland game, by a person (s) unknown.

Stick with facts, not assumptions.

[jmurphyc]

Let's stick with "innocent until guilty" eh?

If assumption is to be the basis of guilt, am not so sure that's a path any of us want to go down.

Assumption is not a good basis for conviction - hard evidence is required. You, no nobody else, has any evidence whatsoever that a Northern Ireland fan (s) were responsible.

The death threat didn't happen "at a Northern Ireland game".

The phonecall was made from a phonebox miles from any Northern Ireland game, by a person (s) unknown.

Stick with facts, not assumptions.

The booing did happen at an NI game though. Was that not NI fans???

[Blanchflower]

That reminds me of the comment on Eircom league forum by some saying those fans of bohemian who wrecked that pub in Derry are not bohemian fans. Grow a pair of balls and admit to it that the people associated with a particular side of your support for your team. Next you will be saying it was sinners and the IRA, actually I bet that has been said already somewhere.....

It's not like that at all. The pub-wreckers were clearly Bohemian fans by their own admission and by the fact that they had travelled to watch Bohemians playing in Derry.

No-one knows who issued the Lennon death threat.

[Cymro]

It's got everything to do with sovereignty. You started banging on about this and that country handing out caps to all and sundry. These countries can still do that if these players live there for more than two years. This rule favours the rich countries with the strong leagues which doesn't count Ireland amongst them. However, these countries (Qatar being the obvious) do not hand out citizenship to the criminals, the peadophiles, the spongers of people living in the territory/country that they have done so to a few gifted footballers. Ireland gives citizenship to everyone born in the O6C regardless of who they are, and the occupying government of the O6C fully accept and agree to that. That's the difference.

And you've completely missed my point. FIFA decides what rules international football follows, not a political document. If these Northern Irish-born players wanted to play for the Republic that badly they'd move down there and serve a period of residence. It's not particularly difficult. The fact that most choose not to implies to me that most don't really care that much which of the two Irish teams they represent as long as they have a good chance of getting to a tournament and doing well on the international stage. With the ROI enjoying the greater success in recent history, you'd expect a few defections.

And the country is called the Republic of Ireland just as France is called the Republic of France. There's no difference, and until NI gets independence, I can't see the confusion. Only exception is when football is being played, but this has nothing to do with the validity of Ireland to pick its citizens to play for it.

Well if you were an independent country you'd be able to decide who is and isn't Welsh. That is exactly what the Irish government has done, including as late as 2004 in taking away the automatic right to everyone born in Ireland to be considered a citizen.

See above argument re: political independence being moot when it comes to football. In fact, I've said the same thing several times in this thread and am not getting through to the nationalist zealots here. If you're just going to bang your nationalist drum, kindly do it in response to someone else's post.

This also serves as a reply for the second quote. Northern Ireland isn't an independent country politically speaking. Politically speaking, it is part of the UK. However, in football terms it is a footballing nation.

What part of this do some people not get?

[Blanchflower]

Well, from a political point of view, yes of course I would. From a football point of view, no. I don't see why that's odd. I'm only saying that I'd pay more attention to the GFA because you seem to be alluding to the fact that they have no right to consider themselves Irish by saying that they have no 'connections' to Ireland.

Well we're discussing football!

I have never alluded that people from NI don't have the right to consider themselves Irish. What a preposterous concept.

[Blanchflower]

I think you'll find it's impossible for anyone from Ireland to be british. They may well be subjects of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland but they're not british. Only England, Scotland and Wales make up britain. Hence the 'and' in the full title of the UK.

Don't be silly. "British" relates to the UK.

[Not Brazil]

Not Brazil, if these fans weren't NI fans then who were they? Did the IFA launch an investigation to ensure that they never set foot in Windsor Park again? Seeing as these people were at the game, I have to assume that they were. Maybe they weren't fans, but there's a good chance they were.

I'm not trying to have a go, I'm just wondering what the IFA did to ensure that a similar situation doesn't occur again.

Are you talking about the death threat issued to Neil Lennon, or the booing of Neil Lennon at the game versus Norway?

[Blanchflower]

The tricolour is a 32 county flag whether you like it or not, it was designed before partition and the colours represent both traditions on the island and peace between them as I'm sure you already know.

Amhrán na bhFiann was also written long before partition and also pertained to the 32 counties. Interestingly enough it was originally written in English and only translated in the 1920's. It certainly represents more then the 26 counties and did so since 1912 when it was first published, although it was being sung for a number of years before that across the entire island long before the border had been concocted.

It's not a 32-county flag - it's the flag of the Republic. When it was designed is irrelevant. Ditto "Amran na Fan".

By your logic the Union Flag is the flag of the whole British Isles, and GSTQ the anthem of the whole British Isles!

[Réiteoir]

Are you talking about the death threat issued to Neil Lennon, or the booing of Neil Lennon at the game versus Norway?

I knew it - it was those subhuman FK Bodø/Glimt supporters and their Anti-Gingerist agenda.

Safe to say - a file detailing these findings will be winging it's way to the Norwegian Football Federation in Oslo first thing tomorrow

[Not Brazil]

Not Brazil, if these fans weren't NI fans then who were they? Did the IFA launch an investigation to ensure that they never set foot in Windsor Park again? Seeing as these people were at the game, I have to assume that they were. Maybe they weren't fans, but there's a good chance they were.

I'm not trying to have a go, I'm just wondering what the IFA did to ensure that a similar situation doesn't occur again.

I presume you mean the booing at the game against Norway.

Well, let's cut to the chase....I'll not bore you to death with all the IFA did/do, in conjunction with the Northern Ireland fans who were deeply offended by what happened to Neil Lennon.

I ask you to accept the words of the victim of the abuse - Mr Neil Lennon - spoken in February of this year.

He said:

"Fans like XXXXX are unsung heroes who have been brave enough to challenge sectarianism and who have actively created a more fun, safe and family orientated atmosphere at international games. (They) have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games the envy of fans across not only Europe but world football. I would personnally like to thank them for efforts."

"When I look at Windsor Park now,it seems a real fun place with a brilliant atmosphere".

[kingdomkerry]

For anyone to come out and say it was'nt fans of the north who issued death threats to lennon is the funniest thing i ever heard. Your codding no one but yourselves. Dont insult our intelligence please!

ireland is represented by 32 two counties. "Northern Ireland" represents 6 counties (when players from there dont want to play for Ireland)

The tri colour represents 32 counties

Our Amhrain na bhain represents 32 countries although i accept that 20% of the population do not feel represented by these.

Thats the way it is so those that cant accept it. Tough ****e!!!

[Not Brazil]

For anyone to come out and say it was'nt fans of the north who issued death threats to lennon is the funniest thing i ever heard. Your codding no one but yourselves. Dont insult our intelligence please!

Whilst it may be a stick you like to beat Northern Ireland fans with - a stick subsequently removed by Neil Lennon himself - you have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that it was a Northern Ireland fan (s) responsible.

Pure speculation, without substance.

I could speculate that it was a Glasgow Rangers fan - but I have absolutely no basis whatsoever to back up that speculation.

Nobody knows - and nobody will know until the perpetrators are caught, charged, tried and convicted.

I sincerely hope that day comes - I detest the vermin responsible, whoever he/she/they are.

[SkStu]

For anyone to come out and say it was'nt fans of the north who issued death threats to lennon is the funniest thing i ever heard. Your codding no one but yourselves. Dont insult our intelligence please!

ireland is represented by 32 two counties. "Northern Ireland" represents 6 counties (when players from there dont want to play for Ireland)

The tri colour represents 32 counties

Our Amhrain na bhain represents 32 countries although i accept that 20% of the population do not feel represented by these.

Thats the way it is so those that cant accept it. Tough ****e!!!

great post.

I actually wish this thread would be closed until this becomes an issue again or there are any further developments in this area as it serves no purpose other than ridiculous, boring, circular arguments between two sets of ideals that will never cede any ground to the other.

by the way, anyone who suggests that it wasnt a NI fan who issued death threats to Lennon is either a WUM or an imbecile or more likely both.

[geysir]

For anyone to come out and say it was'nt fans of the north who issued death threats to lennon is the funniest thing i ever heard. Your codding no one but yourselves. Dont insult our intelligence please!

Speak for yourself
There was clearly a nasty poisonous campaign by ultra loyalists against Lennon before he arrived for that game. Regardless, Lennon turned up and played 45 mins. in the context of widespread grafitti death threats he turned up and got booed.
The fans of NI made their feelings known immediatly after that and their positive response has determined on how they should be judged.

[Not Brazil]

by the way, anyone who suggests that it wasnt a NI fan who issued death threats to Lennon is either a WUM or an imbecile or more likely both.

And...you have evidence to prove this, do you?

Name (s), Supporters Club, etc

PM me with it, if you do.

I will forward it immediately to the PSNI and the IFA.

I presume you agreed with The Birmingham Six's "conviction" - on the basis that because they were Irish, they were "assumed" to be IRA terrorists?

Nah - didn't think so.

[SkStu]

And...you have evidence to prove this, do you?

Name (s), Supporters Club, etc

PM me with it, if you do.

I will forward it immediately to the PSNI and the IFA.

I presume you agreed with The Birmingham Six's "conviction" - on the basis that because they were Irish, they were "assumed" to be IRA terrorists?

Nah - didn't think so.

i repeat, anyone who says it was not or not likely to be a NI fan is a WUM or an imbecile. Answer honestly, do you really believe that the person who threatened to murder Neil Lennon was not a NI fan with a big problem with catholics representing his "country"?

the rest of your post is irrelevant waffle designed to provoke.

[Not Brazil]

i repeat, anyone who says it was not or not likely to be a NI fan is a WUM or an imbecile. Answer honestly, do you really believe that the person who threatened to murder Neil Lennon was not a NI fan with a big problem with catholics representing his "country"?

the rest of your post is irrelevant waffle designed to provoke.

I am not a WUM, and I don't think I'm an imbecile.

I honestly don't know who was responsible - nobody does.

If the person (s) responsible had a problem with "Catholics" playing for Northern Ireland, I don't understand why they waited until Neil Lennon had made several appearances for Northern Ireland (without incident) before issuing the threat, or why they didn't issue the threat to any of the other "Catholic" players on the Northern Ireland team at that time.

"Catholics" play for Northern Ireland at all levels - and always will.

The team was recently captained by another "Catholic".

All Northern Ireland players are supported fully by Northern Ireland fans - their religious beliefs are irrelevant.

Nobody gives a flying one where a player choses to say his prayers - or even if they say any at all.

The rest of my post was not designed to "provoke".

It was designed to highlight the fact that to presume guilt, without sound evidence, is a very dangerous game indeed.

[SkStu]

I am not a WUM, and I don't think I'm an imbecile.

I honestly don't know who was responsible - nobody does.

If the person (s) responsible had a problem with "Catholics" playing for Northern Ireland, I don't understand why they waited until Neil Lennon had made several appearances for Northern Ireland (without incident) before issuing the threat, or why they didn't issue the threat to any of the other "Catholic" players on the Northern Ireland team at that time.

"Catholics" play for Northern Ireland at all levels - and always will.

The team was recently captained by another "Catholic".

All Northern Ireland players are supported fully by Northern Ireland fans - their religious beliefs are irrelevant.

Nobody gives a flying one where a player choses to say his prayers - or even if they say any at all.

The rest of my post was not designed to "provoke".

It was designed to highlight the fact that to presume guilt, without sound evidence, is a very dangerous game indeed.

no, its irrelevant. In the case of the Birmingham 6, there were 6 suspects who were convicted. Here there are no suspects. There is no-one in particular that i am assuming guilty. So it is not a good analogy. What i am saying is that the guilty party were from a particular place and of a particular persuasion. I think thats a fair assumption to make in such a case. Do you think the PSNI got together and were trying to figure this out and dismissed or downplayed the possibility that it was a fan from the North who holds cetain beliefs as you and a few others are trying to do?

the only thing ill retract from my original post is the use of the word catholic. Ill use the term "Celtic captain" instead.

[Drumcondra 69er]

Don't be silly. "British" relates to the UK.

How so? The UK has always specifically separated out the constituent parts, it was the UK of Great Britain and Ireland until independence and partition where it became Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Ireland, either North or South has ever been considered part of Britain. Those are the bare facts.

Unionists have always liked to call themselves British but most of them have never lived in Britain in their lives. As I've said I recognise they're from the UK but British relates to Britain of which the 6 counties are not a part. It may be commonly referred to as such in certain circles but that doesn't make it correct.

Brit·ish /ˈbrɪtɪʃ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[brit-ish] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. of or pertaining to Great Britain or its inhabitants.
2. used esp. by natives or inhabitants of Great Britain: In this dictionary, “Brit.” is an abbreviation for “British usage.”
–noun
3. the people native to or inhabiting Great Britain.

[Drumcondra 69er]

If the person (s) responsible had a problem with "Catholics" playing for Northern Ireland, I don't understand why they waited until Neil Lennon had made several appearances for Northern Ireland (without incident) before issuing the threat, or why they didn't issue the threat to any of the other "Catholic" players on the Northern Ireland team at that time.

All Northern Ireland players are supported fully by Northern Ireland fans - their religious beliefs are irrelevant.

Nobody gives a flying one where a player choses to say his prayers - or even if they say any at all.

Yes you do understand. You know full well that the NI crowd turned on Lennon after he joined Celtic and frankly you're embarrassing yourself to suggest otherwise.

The rest of your post quoted is ******, they're fully supported by NI fans unless they're perceived to flaunt their religion by something like playing for a certain team. The way Lennon was treated by the Windsor Park crowd over a sustained period long before the death threats was a pure disgrace and to be honest you seem to be in complete denial over it.