NI boss targets Republic's Gibson

[lopez]

...You may consider it to be a "civil right" to play international football for one Association rather than another, but (irrespective of the personal sympathy I feel for Gibson) I do not. Neither do FIFA...

More rubbish. It's endless isn't it? Endless.

Yet another example of manipulating the truth to suit your argument. FIFA have no objection to playing for the national team of your choice. It asks for a minimum residence period of 2 years instead. If you were good enough, and you wanted to play for Brazil, you could move to Brazil and 2 years you're ready. Qatar only need to pay for a team of Brazilians to live in the country for two years, and they have bypassed the annex.

FIFA wouldn't dare move any further than this (i.e. restricting international football to either birthplace or recent ancestry) because all the major players in FIFA have used this rule (England, France, Spain, Italy, Germany).

[EalingGreen]

A supposition is based on a presumption without certain knowledge.
That certain knowledge is absent.

The certain knowledge is that Gibson is eligible. Dogma gets in the way of some peoples perception of that certainty.

The only "certain knowledge" in this whole affair is that DG was always eligible to represent Northern Ireland at whatever level he chose, due to his having been born within the (footballing) jurisdiction of the IFA.

Of course, should it be confirmed by FIFA that he is/was eligible for his senior cap v Denmark, that door to senior representation for NI will now be closed to him. However, whilst that may be a matter of "certain opinion" within the FAI, it is not yet "certain knowledge", nor may never be.

[dr_peepee]

You may consider it to be a "civil right" to play international football for one Association rather than another..

Pathetic attempt at trivialising my point by attributing the above statement to me. Read again what I posted. I ask again..

Does removing his choice of representation not diminish the relevence of the "civil right" of choice of Nationality afforded to him?

I feel it does!

[cheifo]

Whatever int team you supported as a kid should be the side you declare your alliegence to.Bit difficult from a regulation point of view but it would be the correct moral one.

[EalingGreen]

FIFA have no objection to playing for the national team of your choice. It asks for a minimum residence period of 2 years instead. If you were good enough, and you wanted to play for Brazil, you could move to Brazil and 2 years you're ready. Qatar only need to pay for a team of Brazilians to live in the country for two years, and they have bypassed the annex.

FIFA wouldn't dare move any further than this (i.e. restricting international football to either birthplace or recent ancestry) because all the major players in FIFA have used this rule (England, France, Spain, Italy, Germany).

I originally stated that it is not a "civil right" for anyone to play senior international football for any given Association. If I am wrong, show me where it says so, in any footballing, political or civil/human rights document or source.

As for the rest of the above, your post is utterly contradictory. You state that:
"FIFA have no objection to playing for the national team of your choice"
and immediately in your next sentence demonstrate how FIFA restrict that self-same choice! (By imposing birth/parent/grandparent/residence criteria)

Therefore, if they decide the Annex applies to Gibson, then he will have no choice to represent the ROI unless he goes and lives there continuously for a minimum of two years!

As for Qatar paying Brazilians etc, they will not have "bypassed the Annex", rather the players will themselves have complied with the restrictions placed by FIFA on their "choice" [sic]

Finally, your contention that the "major players" will stop any further restrictions is oben to debate, since the restrictions were originally introduced following objections by the Kenyan and Cape Verde FA's - hardly giants of the modern game - to Togo capping Brazilians. (Note that the Brazil FA didn't actually object)

And if this problem should continue to fester, it is most likely to arise from "lesser" FA's - predominantly in poorer, 3rd world countries - requiring restrictions to stop their best talents being lured by wealthy "major" FA's - mostly in Europe or the Gulf. And since even the smallest FA has exactly the same voting rights in FIFA as the largest, with a membership of 52 Associations, UEFA is liable to be heavily outnumbered in any vote on this by the other 150+ Associations in FIFA.

[EalingGreen]

Pathetic attempt at trivialising my point by attributing the above statement to me. Read again what I posted. I ask again..

Does removing his choice of representation not diminish the relevence of the "civil right" of choice of Nationality afforded to him?

I feel it does!

Of course it would restrict his rights (though I prefer the term "choice"). I just don't see it as a civil (or human) right, in the way you and other posters on here characterise it. Nor do any of the recognised civil/human rights organisations anywhere in the world that I can see.

But if you can come up with a source that declares it a basic civil (or human) right to represent any given Football Association at international football, I would be very interested to see it.

I won't be holding my breath, mind...

[EalingGreen]

Whatever int team you supported as a kid should be the side you declare your alliegence to.Bit difficult from a regulation point of view but it would be the correct moral one.

Even if one could overcome the regulatory (evidential, actually) difficulties, this doesn't help Gibson's case, since as a kid he first "declared his allegiance to" Northern Ireland, by the fact of his agreeing to represent them!

[dr_peepee]

But if you can come up with a source that declares it a basic civil (or human) right to represent any given Football Association at international football, I would be very interested to see it.

I won't be holding my breath, mind...

Pathetic attempt at trivialising my point by attributing the above statement to me. Another sidestep.

His civil right extends as far as his choice of Nationality.... To remove choice of representation diminishes the relevence of his choice of Nationality.

[lopez]

I originally stated that it is not a "civil right" for anyone to play senior international football for any given Association. If I am wrong, show me where it says so, in any footballing, political or civil/human rights document or source.

Never mind what you call it, the choice to play for whoever you want is there. Gibson's situation is the same as Maik Taylor's (oh no don't bring him in as it might make the IFA look like a bunch of hypocrites). He qualify's through citizenship, not through residency in NI, ancestry to NI, or born in NI. Now I know you British like to think that you're a law unto yourself, but you're not. Therefore if you have an exemption to the rules, you can't complain about someone else having an exemption too. FIFA have already confirmed this; only a complete moron could compare Togo, Kenya, Qatar or anywhere else with Ireland; and seeing that Gibson's qualification was rubber stamped before 2004, you've got no hope of getting him. You're best hope is for a moratorium on further 'defections'. If sucessful, in view of the special exemption you have, your days of picking Johnny Asylum Seeker at will are over

As for the rest of the above, your post is utterly contradictory...

You hope. We're talking about your nugget of an a*se malteser about players not being able to choose the country they want at will (a common piece of cr*p that is aired ad nauseum on 'are we a country?'. It doesn't change what FIFA think about Gibson. He's Irish, and once again, it's you that has to lobby FIFA to close this loophole, in which case the loophole of picking naturalised Britons not resident in NI will also come to an end. Because, you are one arrogant tw*t if you think that little arrangement is going to continue if by some fluke of a chance you win.

But you're right, Gibson's residency in the 26C would of course shut up you bunch of whinging babies. I'm sure that with the distance from Manchester to Dublin considerably closer than Qatar to Rio de Janeiro, we can all fiddle the books so that all Irish player's get their dream of playing for their country, should you ever be successful. Aren't taxes lower in Ireland for sportsmen too?

[co. down green]

Welcome to the bizarre world of Howard Wells.

He said more than nothing. Barefaced lies according to accounts. The guy has no integrity.

He was asked a direct question about FIFA's reply and said he has received none.
He refused to come clean that FIFA have already replied to the IFA in October.
He refused to admit that the IFA have received a direct reply on the eligibility situation last october
He said the FAI have received some letter but said no more.

He also claimed that the FAI have received some questions from FIFA which they have failed to reply.

The FAI for their part said that they are in regular communication with FIFA but have not received one question or request about the eligibility situation.

Bluster and blarney.

As i mentioned 20 pages ago, The IFA were made fully aware of the situation twice during 2006 (Alex Bruce first & then Darron Gibson).

The answer from FIFA was the same on both occasions. The ruling was made by Fifa's Heinz Tannler, Director of the Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of General Legal, in a joint letter to the IFA, which was copied to the FAI," in October 2006.

"In it, they informed the IFA that 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'

I think you will find the previous determination, is still the determination and they posturing of the IFA is simply a way to try and save face after the ruling, as determined by FIFA's top leagal brain Heinz Tannler stated that players from the North of Ireland can represent either team internationally.

The FAI response to 'Hard' Wells yesterday sums up how pathetic the IFA and its manager have been over the issue.

The FAI for their part said that they are in regular communication with FIFA but have not received one question or request about the eligibility situation.

No communication from FIFA because the issue has already been ruled on.

End of story.

[kingdomkerry]

As i mentioned 20 pages ago, The IFA were made fully aware of the situation twice during 2006 (Alex Bruce first & then Darron Gibson).

The answer from FIFA was the same on both occasions. The ruling was made by Fifa's Heinz Tannler, Director of the Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of General Legal, in a joint letter to the IFA, which was copied to the FAI," in October 2006.

"In it, they informed the IFA that 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'

I think you will find the previous determination, is still the determination and they posturing of the IFA is simply a way to try and save face after the ruling, as determined by FIFA's top leagal brain Heinz Tannler stated that players from the North of Ireland can represent either team internationally.

The FAI response to 'Hard' Wells yesterday sums up how pathetic the IFA and its manager have been over the issue.

The FAI for their part said that they are in regular communication with FIFA but have not received one question or request about the eligibility situation.

No communication from FIFA because the issue has already been ruled on.

End of story.

Thats the bottom line so. Is'nt it.

P.S Admin in OWC have threatened me with legal action because i said "Are weea country" rather than "Our Wee Country".

Could you imagine? What are you in for????

[lopez]

P.S Admin in OWC have threatened me with legal action because i said "Are weea country" rather than "Our Wee Country".

Could you imagine? What are you in for????[/INDENT]

Tell us more!

This has got to be a real low for the Army groupie. Truly, truly sad! I can't believe he'd stoop to that level, but it's been hard knowing that it's now open season on all NI players from the poachers at Merrion Square (sorry Abbottstown). I'm going to change my reference to this gobsh*te site to 'are we a country?' in solidarity with you. They'd have a struggle claimng the O6C are, let alone doing you for libel or whatever. Was it Oscar Wilde that said libel is a rich man's sport?

[geysir]

Of course it would restrict his rights (though I prefer the term "choice"). I just don't see it as a civil (or human) right, in the way you and other posters on here characterise it. Nor do any of the recognised civil/human rights organisations anywhere in the world that I can see.

But if you can come up with a source that declares it a basic civil (or human) right to represent any given Football Association at international football, I would be very interested to see it.

I won't be holding my breath, mind...

The circle is complete again
Article 15 of FIFA´s statutes protect the civil rights of players that have dual nationality.

Naturalized players have to follow these rules
Circular 901, a one and a half page document is the clear guideline by which FIFA arbitrate on naturalization issue

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affe...%5fen%5f90.pdf

The document (aka the annex) clearly refers to players assuming a new nationality irrespective of age or changing a nationality.

[lopez]

The circle is complete again
Article 15 of FIFA´s statutes protect the civil rights of players that have dual nationality.

Naturalized players have to follow these rules
Circular 901, a one and a half page document is the clear guideline by which FIFA arbitrate on naturalization issue



The document (aka the annex) clearly refers to players assuming a new nationality irrespective of age or changing a nationality.

For the children on 'are we a country?' , this is what it means.

• FIFA's legal department have come to the conclusion mentioned (the letter to the IFA and FAI) re the situation in the O6C in accordance with this document
• Everyone in the O6C (except those born contrary to the change in the Irish constitution regarding Jus Solie of 2004) is entitled to Irish citizenship, as defined in the GFA, and agreed by the Irish and British governments.
• Anyone from the O6C (except those born contrary to the change in the Irish constitution regarding Jus Solie of 2004) seeking Irish citizenship does not have to be naturalised to get Irish citizenship.
• FIFA states quite clearly that this annex is for those players gaining naturalisation only to a new country. Note the first line: '...intended to assume a New nationality...'
• Darren Gibson et al, are not naturalised citizens, and so this does not affect them

Dream on EG! Dream on!

[EalingGreen]

Pathetic attempt at trivialising my point by attributing the above statement to me. Read again what I posted. I ask again..

Does removing his choice of representation not diminish the relevence of the "civil right" of choice of Nationality afforded to him?

I feel it does!

I didn't "trivialise" anything, instead I gave you my considered answer, whether you accept it or not.

Anyhow, I'll try one more time. Of course DG has the perfect right to Irish citizenship/nationality etc, since that is within the gift of the Irish Government, a gift, moreover, which has existed since the founding of the Free State and which was reinforced by its recognition internationally in the GFA etc. Therefore I have not got a problem with DG exercising his civil and human rights in this regard.

However, where I differ from you is that I do not see those rights as being inherently and inextricably bound up in what Football Association he chooses to represent, still less do I see the two as being identical.

And the fact that FIFA has Regulations governing footballing eligibility which do not coincide exactly with international law on this matter merely demonstrates that they think the same. Otherwise, they would simply declare that any one who has legally acquired nationality of a country, or obtained one of their Passports, would automatically be allowed to represent the FA of that particular country. And as we have seen with the "Togolese" and "Qatari" Brazilians, that is simply not the case. Moreover, it may not be the case with DG, either, though I grant that his case is more complex.

Indeed, to take a different view from that of FIFA would cause at least as many problems as it would solve - not least for many of your fellow Irishmen and women. Otherwise, the logical consequence of your saying Irish = FAI (and vice versa) must be that British = IFA (and v.v.), which would come as a considerable surprise to hundreds of proud Irishmen, Irish Passports and all, who have represented or supported NI down the decades.

Indeed, in another sporting context, it would also cause similar problems for any number of Ulstermen and women who have, e.g. proudly followed the Ireland Rugby Team*, Tricolour and Soldiers Song and all, to be told that their expressing their Irishness in this context must somehow diminish, even contradict, their human and civil right to be British! And cricket. And hockey. And any other number of sports.

The way I prefer to characterise it is quite simple. Someone electing to represent the IFA at football is not making a declaration that he is "British", or "not Irish", or anything else, other than that he is a footballer who plays his international football for Northern Ireland, because that is where he is from.

As such, there is a requirement on him that he leave his personal political convictions in the dressing room, before he takes the field of play, a requirement which must apply equally to all players of all political convictions or none, btw.

In return, each player has the right to expect fair and equal treatment by his Association, management and fans etc, on purely footballing grounds, each time he dons the green and white shirt.

Otherwise, in the absence of any such political discrimination, any player who refuses to represent NI on account of his own political preconceptions, is actually the one who is making this a political issue, not the IFA, nor FIFA, nor the game of football generally (imo). [And on this last point, I am not casting any aspersions on Gibson, since it is not entirely clear to me exactly what his motives were for rejecting the IFA and choosing the FAI.]



* - Notwithstanding that following the recent match at Ravenhill, the IRFU currently seems to feel Belfast is no longer in Ireland!

[EalingGreen]

P.S Admin in OWC have threatened me with legal action because i said "Are weea country" rather than "Our Wee Country".

Could you imagine? What are you in for????

Legal Action? For mangling their name? I'd be very interested to see that! So come on, KK, let's have it.

[EalingGreen]

The circle is complete again
Article 15 of FIFA´s statutes protect the civil rights of players that have dual nationality.

Naturalized players have to follow these rules
Circular 901, a one and a half page document is the clear guideline by which FIFA arbitrate on naturalization issue



The document (aka the annex) clearly refers to players assuming a new nationality irrespective of age or changing a nationality.

All that the Annex (Letter) does is to outline a person's footballing rights re. eligibility. Nowhere does it deem it these to be "civil" (or "human") in character. Otherwise, the Brazilians in question could claim that FIFA is compromising their civil and human rights to take up Qatari or Togolese naturalisation without needing to meet a residency requiremnt etc.

And whilst you may be correct in your interpretation that the Annex applies to people "changing nationality" in a way which does not apply to Gibson, I would not be so sure about that as you.

[greendeiseboy]

Any one want to start a petition for an all ireland team............. if only to put an end to this thread

[EalingGreen]

P.S Admin in OWC have threatened me with legal action because i said "Are weea country" rather than "Our Wee Country".

Could you imagine? What are you in for????

Hmmm. When the above allegation was brought to Marty's attention, his verbatim comment was:

"Eh? Some new law come in that I missed?

Tell the wee sh*t from me he is now banned for that."

[kingdomkerry]

Any one want to start a petition for an all ireland team............. if only to put an end to this thread

I'll be the first to sign.