NI boss targets Republic's Gibson

[EalingGreen]

I don't know what part of this people do not get
a letter from Heinz Tannler, Director of FIFA's Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of their General Legal department stated 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'."
Sent to the IFA on OCT 2006.
in reference to the present situation of Irish citizens born in the North declaring for Ireland

This mythical waiting for a FIFA ruling,
its like they are all Waiting for Godot

Are you implying that FIFA cannot/never make mistakes?

They originally told one Member Association the player was eligible for them.

Then another of their Member Associations disputed it.

So FIFA asked for further information from both whilst they look into it.

In the meantime, DG can go on representing ROI, unless or until FIFA overturns its original determination.

If they don't, it's "As you were, Darron".

But if they do, then he's only eligible for NI.

"I don't know what part of that people do not get..."

[EalingGreen]

That is why they are not going to rule on it at all.

Aye, until he plays a competitive match where the ROI takes a crucial point or
three from another team.

FIFA might not want to rule on this, but they can't not do so.

[geysir]

Although Gspain's reasoning is valid enough (imo), it doesn't actually need "natural justice" to support it.

In this whole issue, the one single certainty which should not be overlooked is that Gibson was unquestionably eligible for NI.

Of course, if his switch to the ROI is confirmed by FIFA, then he is now tied in. However, if FIFA eventually determine that he should not have been told he was eligible for ROI, it is still open to the player to pursue an international career with NI (should he choose).

There was a precedent a wee while back whereby Brian McLean had represented Scotland, his country of birth, as a youth player. He then wanted to represent NI, his parents/grandparents(?) birthplace.

Due to a typical screw-up by the IFA, they omitted to register his switch during an amnesty period for over-21's. FIFA therefore determined he should not subsequently have been allowed to represent NI. He is still eligible for Scotland, however. (Though whether they will ever pick him is highly unlikely, as it happens)

The natural justice lark is a load of cobblers

So the IFA fecked up with Brian Mclean and tried to pull the wool over FIFA's legal eagles.
The FAI have not fecked up.
Darron's transfer has already been effected and stamped years ago by the players committee in the legal dept.
FIFA have stated he could play for Ireland according to all the rules in FIFA and according to all the other decisions they have made on players all around the world.

By what logic would a world sport assoc like FIFA suddenly decide it was wrong and declare all the decisions it has arbitrated on to be illegal.

In the hypothetical scenario of FIFA changing their minds, the future scenario for that is that FIFA vote on a load of new statutes in which a similar Darron Gibson case could not transfer to Ireland from this day henceforth. But all cases it has arbitrated on and approved on before that day would still stand.

[geysir]

So FIFA asked for further information from both whilst they look into it.

Where exactly is the source for this bit of news.

[Maroon 7]

I don't know what part of this people do not get
a letter from Heinz Tannler, Director of FIFA's Legal Division, and Corina Luck, Head of their General Legal department stated 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'."
Sent to the IFA on OCT 2006.
in reference to the present situation of Irish citizens born in the North declaring for Ireland

This mythical waiting for a FIFA ruling,
its like they are all Waiting for Godot

I have to agree. I don't think there will be any FIFA ruling whatsoever apart from maybe a "quit bellyaching and sort it out amongst yourselves" type fob off.

Someone said that they've been waiting 18 months for a FIFA ruling. 18 months? Murder trials don't take that long to be ajudicated on let alone footballing decisions.

[Ordinary Fan]

No matter what happens, Gibson will never play for NI. This is trying to muddy the water about future Darron Gibsons

[macdermesser]

apparently going to Sunderland on loan .. would be a good move for him

[lopez]

You are quite correct that Maik Taylor would still qualify, since the specific Exemption to which you refer in FIFA's Regs is still in place. However, you greatly overstate the actual availability of naturalised Britons who would both play for NI and whom we would also have.

You could also say that the number of players from the six counties to have opted for/been good enough for Ireland (or ROI for your benefit) has also been overstated. Up until the beginning of half time last wednesday this exclusive club had stood at the grand number of zero since the late fourties.

The vast majority live in Great Britain, so would inevitably opt first for England, Scotland or Wales who between them offer a wide range of standards. Which explains why in the last 30 years, there have been only two that I can think of whom NI have picked that way, (both keepers, as it happens).

I thought it was more - someone has also listed two other players here, no? I didn't think it was more than four, but two is still two more players that we've had from the 6C, so it seems to me far more important a pool of players to you, than 6C born players are to us. Apart from Wales, I don't think it is used much (even John Barnes - or any player living in England doesn't compare with Taylor which is the same as the Qatar Brazilians).

...Indeed, both Sanchez and the IFA publicly took a hard line on not picking players with some NI connection when the subject was raised a couple of years back.

Ironic that Sanchez was the player that Bingham publicly named for his reason for not picking too many 'granny' rule lads.

Anyhow, whilst interesting in its own right, this deviation towards discussing the cases of Taylor and Woods has no real relevance to the Gibson case, since both are specifically covered by a FIFA exemption in a way which Gibson is not (whether he is eligible for the ROI by another means or otherwise)

Typical, if you don't like the post, claim it has nothing to do with the subject. B*llocks. It has everything to do with it. The IFA are using an exemption to the FIFA rules to grant international caps. The FAI are doing likewise, and as has been shown, both are acceptable. Anyway, what has the split between the FAI and the IFA got to do with Darren Gibson?

...Further, all the Northern players who have been selected, plus those who have been approached but declined, are from the Nationalist community, so that the NI team risks being turned into a de facto Unionist-only team, through no fault of its own and completely contrary to its wishes...

The NI team is already a de facto unionist team. This happened the day that the IFA flew the Union rag over Windsor Park, it started the day that the IFA allowed scarfe sellers to walk around the ground selling scarves featuring the Orange Order or 'SAS 3 - IRA 0'; it happened the day that the NI supporters booed players for their religion/political views/Scottish team he played for; it started the day your captain curtailed his international career because of a death threat. Darren Gibson grew up when all of this was happening. The awakening of his football interest happened during this time.

Now I for one know that the atmopsphere at WP has improved. Perhaps you can change the few players born in NI who want to play for their country making the switch from the south to the north within the next twenty years. That will start the day that the IFA recognise that they operate in a unique society where nearly half the country view the whole island as one country unjustly divided. Then we can get back to the situation that Darren Gibson playing for a team representing the 26C is as ridiculous as Darren Gibson playing Gaelic football for Kerry and not Derry. What the IFA are doing at the moment is a total PR disaster for the NI team's plurality, let alone the damage that some of the brats on ourweeminds are doing to this dream.

[livehead1]

Lopez, the man/boy is a muppet, don't waste your time posting replies to such dribble!! Gibson, plays for us, as does Kane etc etc.... Basically they want players who WANT to play for us, banned from playing for us and forced to play for the North!! I feel sorry for them; in fact its more pity.

[Lionel Ritchie]

The NI team is already a de facto unionist team. This happened the day that the IFA flew the Union rag over Windsor Park, it started the day that the IFA allowed scarfe sellers to walk around the ground selling scarves featuring the Orange Order or 'SAS 3 - IRA 0'; it happened the day that the NI supporters booed players for their religion/political views/Scottish team he played for; it started the day your captain curtailed his international career because of a death threat.

Shrill argument Lopez. I'll give you that the support base of the NI team is likely to be predominantly unionist (not that I'm inclined to care) but the team itself, under a string of managers, has had a fairly even cross-community blend to it. Where are the scarf sellers now? Where are the billy boys who'd boo their own players? They're gone because the bulk of the NI supporters shouted them down and took their team back. As for their flag? Well they don't have an official flag of their own and if they did I suspect you'd find fault with it anyway. Though I'm glad you give some credit where it's due when you say...

Now I for one know that the atmopsphere at WP has improved.

...though it is something of an understatement. What they've managed to achieve with the atmosphere up there is feckin remarkable by any standard. The supporters are an absolute credit to the team and the association.

[livehead1]

Shrill argument Lopez. I'll give you that the support base of the NI team is likely to be predominantly unionist (not that I'm inclined to care) but the team itself, under a string of managers, has had a fairly even cross-community blend to it. Where are the scarf sellers now? Where are the billy boys who'd boo their own players? They're gone because the bulk of the NI supporters shouted them down and took their team back. As for their flag? Well they don't have an official flag of their own and if they did I suspect you'd find fault with it anyway. Though I'm glad you give some credit where it's due when you say...

Lets wait on this one untill the next time a Celtic player pulls on a N.I jersey, I wouldn't be 100%, although I do believe major progress has been made.

[NeilMcD]

of if a rangers player pulll on a Republic of Ireland jersey or plays for denmark and the LR announcer also says he plays for Rangers.

[geysir]

In a nut shell.
The IFA appeal (after refusing to accept the FIFA ruling in OCT 2006) is based solely on a FIFA article (the Annex) which is used to arbitrate for naturalization issues. FIFA have already determined in Oct 2006 that that ANNEX does not apply to NI born Irish citizens.
If Paddy Power ran a book on the IFA's chances - greater than Elvis turning up at Windsor Park.

It is the undisputed constitutional right of anybody born in NI to be Irish.
It is disturbing that there is evidence of an engrained cynical ignorance in the IFA and their fans of what it is to be Irish, particularily with those who have declared for Ireland.

[livehead1]

of if a rangers player pulll on a Republic of Ireland jersey or plays for denmark and the LR announcer also says he plays for Rangers.

Jesus, take things so literally! You must surely realise i'm not simply on about the physical putting on of the shirt; its everything that comes with it, i.e. the abuse he suffered at the hands of his own fans.

Your point simply isn't valid, if an Ireland international played for Rangers he wouldn't get anywhere near the same amount of abuse, in fact I believe he would get practically none.

[EalingGreen]

So the IFA fecked up with Brian Mclean and tried to pull the wool over FIFA's legal eagles.
The FAI have not fecked up.
Darron's transfer has already been effected and stamped years ago by the players committee in the legal dept.
FIFA have stated he could play for Ireland according to all the rules in FIFA and according to all the other decisions they have made on players all around the world.

By what logic would a world sport assoc like FIFA suddenly decide it was wrong and declare all the decisions it has arbitrated on to be illegal.

In the hypothetical scenario of FIFA changing their minds, the future scenario for that is that FIFA vote on a load of new statutes in which a similar Darron Gibson case could not transfer to Ireland from this day henceforth. But all cases it has arbitrated on and approved on before that day would still stand.

The IFA did not "try to pull the wool over FIFA's eyes" - they were quite open about their own mistake. However, I cited McClean merely as an example of what happens when a player is told he is ineligible, through no fault of his own, for a given Association for which he might otherwise have been eligible: i.e. he may no longer play for that Association, but can still represent his original Association.

As for FIFA and Gibson, are you saying that FIFA can never misinterpret or misapply their own Rules and Regulations, or make an incorrect interpretation or application on the basis of incorrect or inadequate information?
That's nonsense - otherwise they would never feel the need to accept appeals against any of their Rulings i.e. in this case, all it would have taken was a one sentence reply to the IFA, effectively stating: "We're right, you're wrong, case closed"

As for the sentence I've emboldened, it is even greater nonsense to conclude that were FIFA to accept the IFA's appeal over Gibson, this would mean it was effectively declaring all of its arbitrations to be "illegal"

And in the event of FIFA finally deciding that they should not originally have declared Gibson to have been eligible for the ROI, this will be because he (actually the FAI) has not demonstrated successfully that he satisfies the current FIFA criteria (presumably the Brazilian/Qatari Annex re birthplace/parent/grandparent/residency).

This would then leave FIFA with a choice. If they consider as a matter of policy that players in his position should not be entitled to represent the ROI, then they will say so, DG's ROI career will be over and he will only be eligible to play for NI (should he choose to).

On the other hand, if they feel that the Brazilian/Qatari Annex which they introduced was not originally designed to cover the somewhat unusual (unique?) circumstances of Irish Nationality, then I imagine they will either amend the Annex or insert a specific Exemption for ROI players.
In which case, they may say to Gibson: "Sorry, but I'm afraid you've been unlucky with your timing", or they may say that "You should be barred, but since there was no fault on your part, we will declare an amnesty which would allow you to continue representing ROI".

[livehead1]

On the other hand, if they feel that the Brazilian/Qatari Annex which they introduced was not originally designed to cover the somewhat unusual (unique?) circumstances of Irish Nationality, then I imagine they will either amend the Annex or insert a specific Exemption for ROI players.
In which case, they may say to Gibson: "Sorry, but I'm afraid you've been unlucky with your timing", or they may say that "You should be barred, but since there was no fault on your part, we will declare an amnesty which would allow you to continue representing ROI".

EU Legislations is full of little bits annexed onto the end of them with regard to Irish nationality and loads of different things related to the situation in Ireland. For instance, positive discrimination re: catholics teachers in schools and catholics in psni etc. I would imagine legally, if the outcome of FIFA in the brazil/qatari case is to say go away son you can't play for qatar just because you weren't good enough for brazil/they offered you a load of cash, then the are going to say you are either resident, born, parents or grandparents born in the country you want to play for. That would do FIFA to stop that problem. Then, FIFA will also look at the issue which i'm sure they will already be well aware of and come out with what is almost a get-out clause for the fai and fifa themselves and annex onto the end of this rule something along the lines of "due to the complex political climate in Northern Ireland and under the provisions in *GFA LEG.* (Enter here) which entitle and person born on the Island of Ireland to gain citizenship and therefore a passport of Ireland, they shall be entitled to represent either Rep. Ireland or Northern Ireland.

Obviously far more elequently than I have put it in the 2 mins i spent on it but im sure you get the gist...I think that is what is likely to happen.

[geysir]

Ealing G your "In which case"
is based on drivel with no relevance to legal procedure nor relevance to reality.
There are at least hundreds of cases very similar to Darron Gibson all over the world. There are numerous Federations with very similar situations to Ireland. All similar cases to Darrons have been determined legal by FIFA Legal Dept. down through the years to this present day.

[co. down green]

As for FIFA and Gibson, are you saying that FIFA can never misinterpret or misapply their own Rules and Regulations, or make an incorrect interpretation or application on the basis of incorrect or inadequate information?

eg

FIFA endorsed Alex Bruce's right to represent Ireland in Jan 06, the IFA queried the decision and were told 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'.". The IFA then queried the rights of Gibson, Kane etc.. and were told in an official response in October of that year 'the existing situation in Northern Ireland allows players to choose whether they wish to represent Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland'."

FIFA did not misinterpret or misapply their own Rules and Regulations or make an incorrect interpretation. They gave the same answer in both cases.

[Not Brazil]

I see Tony Kane has had a "re-think" after his brief spell with the Republic Under 21's.

Back in the fold.

[Not Brazil]

'As opposed to the vile anti semetic and and Nazi celebrations that went on the last time ROI played Israel in Dublin.

Shame on you.'

Not only are we beggers - we're Nazis!

Ahem - being a new member, you'll not be familiar with the events that day being discussed on - err - here!