Celtic Discussion

**Paddy Ramone** · 13/01/2004, 9:14 AM

Originally posted by davros
An Irish club,whose fans,er,are in the same'tradition'......even if a tad distorted @ times.
As with the H*ns & their fans,a legacy of the Tans' "Divide-&-rule"......!

Dead right. That's why I prefer Hibs to Celtic in Scotland.

**Paddy Ramone** · 13/01/2004, 9:21 AM

Originally posted by lopez
Jam,

Haven't met before, so hello! As someone who has been critical of certain sections of Parkhead, was heartened to see a four part flag of the flags of Scotland (saltire), Ireland, Spain and the Celtic green and white flag at the last Old firm while watching the game on the box. I think times are changing, particularly as it was traditional to have the Ikurina, which is ironic considering the only Basque to play in an old firm (I may be wrong) wore a blue shirt.

The design of the Basque flag was inspired by the Union Jack.

Lopez don't you claim to be a Republican, yet you support Real Madrid. Real is the Spanish word for Royal which as added to their name because of the patronage of the Spanish Royal Family.

**lopez** · 13/01/2004, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
The design of the Basque flag was inspired by the Union Jack.

Probably true about the UJ. Still, the Irish flag was based on the French tricolour, but we don't poison pacific atolls with nuclear explosions.

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Lopez don't you claim to be a Republican, yet you support Real Madrid. Real is the Spanish word for Royal which as added to their name because of the patronage of the Spanish Royal Family.

Deportivo mate, simply because of my old dear's home town of La Coruna. Depor also has the 'real' suffix common amongst many Spanish clubs including Real Sociedad from that highly monarchist town of San Sebastian/Donostia. Have only ever seen Real twice. Once at Spurs in the mid eighties and the other while watching Depor at the Santiago Bernabeu last March. Don't know where you got that from, although as with any Spanish side (and usually the last to fall in recent seasons), I'd support them in Europe.

As for Republican, I am that with a small r. Why? To me they are all basically a bunch of useless f*ckers with the exception of possibly two examples in modern times. The Danish King, for wearing the Star of David in WW2 which probably helped Denmark send the smallest quantity of Jews pro rata to the gas chambers than any Nazi occupied country, and Juan Carlos for sticking up his middle finger to certain reactionary elements of the Spanish Army and Police during the coup attempt of 1981, resulting in its sudden collapse. Apart from that, I'd put them all in a sink estate

where their behaviour (general laziness, scrounging off the state, high inbredness, extra-marital affairs, sons by different fathers, owning crazed dogs, low I.Q, need I go on?) would be far more appreciated.

I've heard that the anthem of the Second Republic (recently mis-played at the Davis Cup final between Spain and Australia) had an unofficial version with a verse as thus: A man was having a Barry White/and didn't have any bog roll/King Alfonso XIII was passing/so he wiped his ar*e with him instead. (Un hombre estaba cagando/y no ten�a papel/pas� el Rey Alfonso XIII/y se limpio el culo con �l.) Classic! Any chance of that being sung at Parkhead, Dav?

**�anna** · 13/01/2004, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by lopez
Juan Carlos for sticking up his middle finger to certain reactionary elements of the Spanish Army and Police during the coup attempt of 1981, resulting in its sudden collapse.

He only did that cos they were gonna give him the boot if they succeeded.

**Beavis** · 13/01/2004, 12:12 PM

Lopez,enlighten me here if you could.
I always thought Spain a hugely divided country with the Gaclicians,Catalans,Basque-ies

,Andalucians etc.,all seeking seperate identities but which wereheld under the rule of Madrid and the Cassillans(?).

I always thought this the cause of Spain's under achievement in football,that only a small percentage of the population was actually behind the team and that players not from the Cassillan(?) region did not have their heart in it.How would your Depor buddies react if they knew you were a Madrid fan?

Or have I just got it completely wrong?

**lopez** · 13/01/2004, 2:15 PM

Originally posted by Beavis
Lopez,enlighten me here if you could.
I always thought Spain a hugely divided country with the Gaclicians,Catalans,Basque-ies,Andalucians etc.,all seeking seperate identities but which wereheld under the rule of Madrid and the Cassillans(?).

We've succeeded in turning many threads into 94 pages of Celtic. Now to turn the Celtic thread into something unconnected.

Your statement is like saying that because there's a massive SF march in Belfast that NI is dying to join with the south or that a 'great crowd' greeted Queen Vic on her rare visits to Dublin, that 19th century Irish separatism was a sham. Spain has its independence movements in Catalunya, Euskadi and Galicia and The Canaries but whether they are in the majority is doubtful in the first two and definitely not the case in the last. In fact I dare say you'd find independence movements in much of Spain as you'd find Geordies that want out of Britain.

If democracy is the key to 'being held' then what you are saying is incorrect. In fact the Basques cannot get a majority backing independence in Euskadi let alone what they consider is their homeland (Euskadi, Navarra (which turned down the chance to join Euskadi in a referendum in 1982) and the French Basque land). A bit like Hugh Ross and to a lesser extent the good Reverend Martyn Smith's idea for a nine-county Protestant state.

Originally posted by Beavis
I always thought this the cause of Spain's under achievement in football,that only a small percentage of the population was actually behind the team and that players not from the Cassillan(?) region did not have their heart in it.

You are correct in a way, but wrong in your angle. Spain's underachievement is down to several reasons, but it is true that there is less interest in la seleccion than in club sides. This indifference is found as much in Madrid as in Barcelona.

Equally, in 1996, I met up with these Barcelona fans who were over in Leeds following Spain. I was surprised that they weren't Espanyol. We got talking and they said they being Catalan and Spanish did not contradict. Later I saw a couple of Basques wearing shirts of the Basque seleccion (they play only friendlies) with Basque flags cheering on Spain. I was over for the Yugoslavia game in Brugges in 2000 and saw the same thing. (Dav: T. the Tash was there too and was horrified by what he saw). As for commitment, the key is how many players turn down the chance of playing for Spain. According to a Real mate of mine, it's just one. All those Basques and Catalans that never had the heart, and it took a Galician by the name of Nacho to say f*ck off and keep your caps. And as we know, since when would not having the heart in being Spanish hamper someone's performance. Michael Robinson, John Aldridge, Tony Cascarino. Not much Irish in any of them, but I wouldn't say they didn't have heart.

Originally posted by Beavis
How would your Depor buddies react if they knew you were a Madrid fan?

Or have I just got it completely wrong?

Would most Irish fans wish other Irish clubs the best in Europe? I would but I'm not down at Shamrock Rovers every fortnight so it's hard to say how a Hoops fan felt about Bohs defeat to Rosenberg. Regarding Depor fans, it is known as a leftist club in support. I was at a game a couple years against Malaga and there were a few falangist boneheads up stirring it. A load of depor ultras came over with a Galician flag with a red star in the middle, a soviet flag and a Ikurrina singing 'Puta Espana' to the tune of Viva Espana. However I've seen Spanish flags on my travels in Europe. Basically my Depor buddies are 2G Spanish who would not let antipathy to Madrid make them support a foreign club like Man U against them in a European game. I'm sure you'd understand that in a country where people do follow foreign clubs instead of their own. As for the rest, I'm more concerned that you'd ask me who I was supporting in Suwon.

Originally posted by �anna
He only did that cos they were gonna give him the boot if they succeeded.

The line of the conspirators was that he was in on it from the start.

Originally posted by Davros
Expect a v.wordy answer!

I hope that was to your liking. See you in Pretty Woman tonight!

**Paddy Ramone** · 13/01/2004, 3:40 PM

Originally posted by davros
Aye,but think you'll find Hibees & Hearts,have much the same relationship as the OF;They regularly berate their Glasgow equivalents................

Quite a few players have moved from one Edinburgh club to the other and have been accepted. Compare that to Rangers and Celtic. Half of the Hibs fans are Protestant and support them because they live closer to Easter Road than Tynecastle. Hibs heartland is Leith where they draw support regardless of religion.

**gspain** · 14/01/2004, 8:48 AM

I was at the Edinburgh derby at the start of last season. Passionate atmosphere and very enjoyable and clear hatred between the fans but no sectarian comments or symbols either.
However it was rivalry.

As Paddy stated support is down to whether you're from Gorgie or Leith although I'm sure it's blurred more with the city expanding. I also met some Hearts and a Hibs fan in Korea who had been attending games in their Scotland shirts.

The Hearts support is mainly protestant as is the Aberdeen support but then the east of Scotland is mainly protestant.

A former Catholic colleague was a season ticket holder at Ibrox as he considered himself British.

That's the key difference here as both clubs consider themselves Scottish and fans support Scotland along with Aberdeen, Killie et al.

They all hate the Old Firm because Rangers promote the British identity and some fans wear England shirts while Celtic....

**Paddy Ramone** · 14/01/2004, 12:56 PM

I think you'll find it's the other way around and that Hearts are more political than Hibs. Hearts have a small sectarian BNP element who follow them but they are not as a bad as Rangers.

I know a few Hibs supporters who are Catholic and regard Celtic as their second favourite team but most Hibs supporters hate Celtic but not as much as Rangers or Hearts. Hibs supporters are also proud of the fact that they were the first to wear the green and that the Irish rebel leader James Connolly was a fan but regard themselves first and foremost as a non-sectarian Scottish club. The following are Hibs Message Message Boards.

www.hibsfc.com
www.hibeesbounce.com

Dundee Harp and Dundee Hibs which became Dundee United were the Irish Catholic sides in Dundee drawing their support from Lochee, an Irish Catholic area nicknamed Tipperary.

Larkhall Thistle are Scottish non-league side with a reputation of being "bluenoses". One of the Lisbon Lions John Clark played for them despite that.

Sectarianism is only really a problem in West Central Scotland. The Highland shinty team Oban Celtic chose "Celtic" instead of "Rangers" after a coin was tossed.

Some of the Free Presbyterians, in the Gaelic speaking Western Isles support Celtic instead of Rangers becuse they regard the Ibrox club as the Church of Scotland side.

**Jam** · 14/01/2004, 2:07 PM

I'm Scottish and can confirm what Paddy says about hearts and Hibs - Hibs' heartland is Leith in Edinburgh and they draw most of their hardcore support from there. They consider themselves non-sectarian Scottish - their Scottish fans support Scotland - unlike Celtic where lots of their Scottish fans support Scotland but a vociferous minority have a ridiculous sectarian perspective and choose to support Ireland. I think, for many of this latter group, their reasons are sectarian rather than genuinely feeling Irish cos one of their great grandads hailed from donegal. How else would you explain the singing of Henrik Larrson songs at Ireland games? And the slagging off of the "tartan Army huns" at hampden last year in Feb? I don't think it was the Irish singing that. It's the plebs (not very many of them but noticeable enough) fae Glasgow that support Celtic and think Ireland is Celtic.

Most Hearts fans are just the mirror of Hibs now but they have a small vociferous loyalist group which the normal fans detest but no doubt fear as unsurpisingly, they are psychos. In Gorgie, the hearts area of Edinburgh, there are a couple of Hearts loyalist bars.

Basically, most people in Scotland who indulge in sectarianism or Loyalism vs Irish nationalism tend to be a bit silly as it's not really any of our phuqin business - the bitterness and the raw emotions in Northern Ireland are real and evident they've suffered a minor civil war for the last 30 years or so - Scots haven't and Ireland/Northern Ireland/whatever you want to call it isn't even our country. But try telling some of the morons in Scotland that. There are morons everywhere and we're no different I'm afraid.

Scotland is a mixture of a widespread sympathy/empathy for Ireland (forget the politics - just Ireland as a whole, the culture etc-half of us have links there and culturally we are similar - I feel much more at home in Ireland (on both sides of the border actually) than I do in England) and amongst some of the population an outdated sectarian perspective which affects their judgement of the Irish, unionists in the north, catholics, protestants, Britain, Scotland - phuqin stupid kunts.

United (dundee united) don't really have any link at all any more to Ireland/catholicism. The teams in the satellite towns around Glasgow tend to be protestant but nothing like Rangers and aren't anti-Irish. Indeed, Rangers are probably more detested by non-OF fans than Celtic by just about everyone.

And Dunfermline Athletic - well we're just phukin brilliant!

**Paddy Ramone** · 14/01/2004, 4:55 PM

Originally posted by davros
Seems fair comment;Rivalry seems confused,as both seem more bothered about their Glaswegian equivalents,esp.Hearts who seem to regard this more in a' Liverpool-Manchester' way,whereas Hibs.,mildly seem a tad more political?

You may be right about the Hearts/Old Firm rivalry being more geographic, well certainly Hearts/Rangers. Hibs fans hate Celtic because they stole all their best players and claim to be the "Irish" club in Scotland, ignoring the fact that the Hibees were the first to wear the green. They hate Rangers for the same reasons everyone else does and because Hibs would have a little bit more Catholic support than other clubs (except Celtic of course) because of club's origins.

**OFGTF** · 14/01/2004, 9:15 PM

Originally posted by davros
Am trying to find working Hearts & Hibs message boards',to put a general point to them?Will advise,if I find!

I'll save you the bother.

The majority of genuine Scottish fans ....... and by genuine I mean those that follow their local team and turn up to watch second rate footballers play in a second rate league knowing full well that the money grabbing, player stealing, bigoted brothers grip on the game will mean that you know before a season starts you are playing for nothing more than a possible chance of an away trip in a qualifying round of the UEFA Cup ......... hate the Old Firm with a vengence.

Our friend The Scotsman has deserted his local team of Airdrie, who I might add went into administration and went out of business due the the lack of funds and support, to head off for a bit of glory hunting at Celtic Park.

Do not think for a second that this fools views on Scottish football are in any way a reflection of the thousands that turn out to follow their local teams because he has no idea what it's like to put hard earned wages into the life blood of the Scottish game.

As has been pointed out by others Hibernian were around a long time before Celtic were (Hibs formed 1875 Celtic in 1888). The misconception thrown around by a lot of Celtic fans is that the team were formed by a catholic priest to help out the local community. It was in fact Hibs that were formed in this way and prior to Celtic being formed Hibs had already played a number of well mannered charity matches against a certain Glasgow Rangers to help the communities of Edinburgh and Glasgow.

It is the opinion of many that the forming of Celtic was in no small part down to the vision of some as to the money making options a football team could generate. This is in a way backed up by the fact that the formation of Celtic came about with the luring of players from the Hibs team of the time through to Glasgow with the promise of financial gain.

On to the modern game though.

There are busloads of Old Firm supporters deserting their local teams every weekend and it is fair to say that these supporters are looked upon in much the same way as you view those supporters deserting the Irish League for the spoils at Celtic Park.

Yes there is rivalry between Hibs/Hearts, Dundee/Dundee Utd, Raith Rovers/Dunfermline but it is exactly that .. rivalry. It is not the hatred which is so visible on the day of an Old Firm derby and it does not revolve around religion/sectarianism/bigotry.

I think if you ask any Hibs/Hearts supporter they will say that they hate the Old Firm more than they could hate their local rivals. The gruesome twosome are killing the Scottish game and the frustrating thing is they wont think twice about jumping ship and infesting what ever league is willing to take them.

**Mukadua** · 15/01/2004, 1:36 AM

Originally posted by eoinh

Imagine not supporting an irish team because there not good enough (which may be a valid point) and then choosing Hibernian, which you seem to have done. Thats madness!! You could have chosen Real Madrid but you chose Hibs of Edinburgh. Smart choice boy. Funnily enough i think that Bohs and Shels are of a higher standard than Hibernian of Edinburgh. If more people like you supported them or city then they would be much better than them.

Be a real football fan go to real live football matchs.

Dinnae talk pish son.

Ohh aye, I rarely miss a game.

Hibernian FC, been around the block a few times and still going strong.....

**Mukadua** · 15/01/2004, 1:42 AM

Originally posted by Conor74
Going to Scotland for a few days in Feb. Hibs/Hearts derby on. Worth going along to? Any hassle at that game? What's a good Hibs pub (assuming a green Cork City top won't go down too well with Hearts fans)? Are tickets easy to pick up over there or will it be a sell out?

Conor, we (Hibernian) will be at home and most pubs near the ground will be Hibs. Want to taste the passion pre match, try the Cabbage and Ribs in Albert Street, five minutes from the ground. A Hibs theme pub packed on Derby day. (Your Cork shirt will be made most welcome). Did ye know there is a Dublin Hibs SC made up of Irish League fans and expat Scots who come over a couple of times a year. Tickets will be available from the stadium up to the day before kick off.

**Mukadua** · 15/01/2004, 1:47 AM

Originally posted by davros

Appreciate sour grapes between Glasgow & Edinburgh,but the former has always been a Hotbed of football interest with huge crowds @ 3 different grounds over the last century.....or were there'glory-hunters'even then?!
PS.Here's to Hibs.coming 2nd.!& Cowdebeath/Albion Rovers getting into Europe,somehow.....

Mair pish, 15, 000 v us late 80's early 90's, when we took at least 2-3000 to away games, Huns late 70's 3000 at a home game and Thistle rarely get more than 4000 home fans. Huge my arse.

If you know your history? If ye dinnae, make it up.

As for your patronising pish about hoping Hibs come second to Celtic. I hope you lot feck off to England. We don't want you.

**Jam** · 15/01/2004, 10:25 AM

have to echo OFGTF comments about the gruesome twosome. Even other rivalries like Hibs/Hearts ye'll find they hate the Glaswegian north-Brits (pseudo Irish nationalists/loyalists) more than each other. I'm Dunfermline and we've historically had a wee rivalry with Falkirk and Raith - just a wee one like cos we're so superior it gets tedious

but now ye find that everybody just wants to gub the OF.

When we beat Rangers the other week 2-0

I was watchin it in London with a Hearts mate of mine. Despite the fact that we are both competing for 3rd place (UEFA cup and the only real prize for the truly Scottish teams) he was wantin us tae beat them. This is the same all over Scotland amongst the local team supporters - they all want the old scum to get phukt. I don't hate Falkirk supporters - how could I? They're just like me. Do Eircom league fans hate other fans - or is it better than walking aboot wi a Celtic, Man U, Liverpool top on? Course it is.

**Mukadua** · 19/01/2004, 8:20 AM

Fan boycott my arse. If I could be bothered I would dig out the figures to highlight a very, very long boycott. Glory Hunters, 40,000 plus of you!!!!

And I quote...........In the past 40 years the lowest League gate at Parkhead is the 4,956 who watched Celtic v Dundee on Apr 24th 1984.......when did this boycott start again?

**gustavo** · 09/02/2004, 12:52 AM

i know you have read "theres only one red and white army" conor so u will know that the passage about the half time protest at milltown would tell you all you need to know about eircom league solidarity