Celtic Discussion

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Always thought the cultures of both countries parted to a large extent with the arrival of the reformation and its ideals to Scotland.
Dunno about helping each other in battles either, think ye may have seen Braveheart one to mant times!
Alot of the misery inflicted on Ireland (specialy in the last few hundred years) has been at the hands of Scottish people IMHO.

You should study Irish history more. Irish people with the surnames McDonnell, McCabe, McSweeney, Sheehy and Gallagher are descended from Scottish Gallowglasses who fought alongside the Irish against the Normans.

Edward Bruce the brother of the Scottish hero, Robert the Bruce was even crowned King of Ireland. The Blarney Stone was part of the Stone of Scone given in reward to the McCarthys who fought in the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, so Braveheart isn't complete fiction.

In fact the Scottish-Irish Gaelic link wasn't completely broken until Bonnie Prince Charlie was defeated at the Battle of Culloden in 1746. The commander of the prince's army was a Kerryman John O'Sullivan and many of the descendants of the wild geese fought in that battle.

About misery being inflicted. The Scottish people suffered a lot under British rule too, after Culloden and during the Highland Clearances.

You can still see the similarities in cultures today in the Irish and Scottish Gaelic languages. The Gaels of the Scotland are descended from the Irish. In fact Scot originally meant Irishman. Ireland was once known as Scotia Major and Scotland was called Scotia Minor. So no one can deny the strong links between the two countries.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by aussie_tim_1798
Hibs were the only sectarian club in Scotland to begin with - they only played Catholics as a rule. Hibernian was far more solely Irish Catholic than Celtic - only in the last half-century did that changed, simply because the Glasgow clubs became the top two, the rivalry more intense and politicized etc. McCracken, as a "scotch-irish" ulsterman, would certainly find the tricolor and the term "Celtic" instead of just the Latin for Irish, more accomodating to his heritage and politics (seeing as Hibs of late have developed a distinctly non-celtic, non-irish, non-scottish fascist casual element).

The great Irish Socialist Republican and leader of the 1916 rising James Connolly had no problem in supporting in Hibs. Another reason why Irish people should support Hibs instead of Celtic.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
You should study Irish history more. Irish people with the surnames McDonnell, McCabe, McSweeney, Sheehy and Gallagher are descended from Scottish Gallowglasses who fought alongside the Irish against the Normans.

Edward Bruce the brother of the Scottish hero, Robert the Bruce was even crowned King of Ireland. The Blarney Stone was part of the Stone of Scone given in reward to the McCarthys who fought in the Battle of Bannockburn in 1314, so Braveheart isn't complete fiction.

In fact the Scottish-Irish Gaelic link wasn't completely broken until Bonnie Prince Charlie was defeated at the Battle of Culloden in 1746. The commander of the prince's army was a Kerryman John O'Sullivan and many of the descendants of the wild geese fought in that battle.

About misery being inflicted. The Scottish people suffered a lot under British rule too, after Culloden and during the Highland Clearances.

You can still see the simularities in cultures today in the Irish and Scottish Gaelic languages. The Gaels of the Scotland are descended from the Irish. In fact Scot originally meant Irishman. Ireland was once known as Scotia Major and Scotland was called Scotia Minor. So no one can deny the strong links between the two countries.

Iv a BA in History and Geography mate!

I stated that in the last few centuries in particular Scotland has played a very active part in the affairs of Ireland, right up to today where a large percentage of British troops based in the six counties are drawn from Scotland!
Read up on the british empire, particularly from the industrial revolution on to see how active Scotland has been within the affairs of the British Empire!
Knowing history is to know that you take information from every quater to build a complete picture of events as apposed to taking one view point as gospel at the expense of other sources of evidence.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
Iv a BA in History and Geography mate!

I stated that in the last few centuries in particular Scotland has played a very active part in the affairs of Ireland, right up to today where a large percentage of British troops based in the six counties are drawn from Scotland!
Read up on the british empire, particularly from the industrial revolution on to see how active Scotland has been within the affairs of the British Empire!
Knowing history is to know that you take information from every quater to build a complete picture of events as apposed to taking one view point as gospel at the expense of other sources of evidence.

You say you feel affinity with Scottish club Celtic yet you are anti-Scottish. You are typical of the mindset among some Celtic fans which only emphasises the differences between Ireland and Scotland.

The Irish also sadly also played an an active part in the spread of the British Empire, many Irish soldiers serving in the British Army. Look at Britain today and see that the poorest parts are in Scotland. The Scots have been as much victims of English rule as the Irish.

It is the bigoted insular attitudes of many West of Scotland Catholics and Protestants who vote Labour instead of the Scottish National Party which keeps Scotland within the United Kingdom. Many Celtic-supporting Catholics think the SNP are Presbyterian bigots (despite the fact the SNP were formed by a Catholic Compton Mackenzie!) and many Rangers-supporting Protestants think the SNP are linked to the IRA and Sinn Fein!

[Jam]

Paddy you are 100% right about the SNP thing. Celtic and Rangers fans often spout this cr*p. No independence for us yet I'm awfie sad tae say. I would however say that Ireland has been historically more of a victim than Scotland. But not any more and not for a while.

And trivial arguments about which soldiers are stationed in N. Ireland miss the point entirely (by Lionel, not you Paddy). This is a conflict area (and spare me any potential ramblings about the the injustice of partition). It is 2003, not 1921, and the UK government is bending over backwards to manage the situation.

Also do you really think the Irish government seriously wants Northern Ireland back? And have a million angry unionists in their country making up almost 20% of the population? With all the economic costs to go with it not to mention the potential for social unrest/war? The simplistic Brits occupying northern Ireland argument has no meaning any more. They don't even want to be there and would love to leave if they could.

[the 12 th man]

why are glasgow celtic called the the bhoys??.why the odd spelling??//

[Paddy Ramone]

"Bhoys" is the spelling of the Irish pronunciation of "boys". Celtic as everyone knows were founded by the Irish Catholics in Glasgow.

[the 12 th man]

thanks /knew about the irish connection it was just the name i was wondering about

[TheRealRovers]

as everyone knows were founded by the Irish Catholics in Glasgow.

A Sligo man founded Celtic. Back to the why do so many Irish people support Celtic and not Irish clubs I think you can support/follow any one you want. I have family in Glasgow so I've been to a few games in Park Head but I couldn't say I support Celtic because of that. I support Sligo Rovers because they are my local team I go to all home Games and most away ones that’s what support is. Like most Irish people I follow Celtic (because of the Irish thing and I got family there) I watch them on the TV etc that’s what you call following a team.

[Duncan Gardner]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
It is the bigoted insular attitudes of many West of Scotland Catholics and Protestants who vote Labour instead of the Scottish National Party which keeps Scotland within the United Kingdom. Many Celtic-supporting Catholics think the SNP are Presbyterian bigots (despite the fact the SNP were formed by a Catholic Compton Mackenzie!) and many Rangers-supporting Protestants think the SNP are linked to the IRA and Sinn Fein!

I'm, er, no fan of the Old Firm, but blaming them for the SNP's weakness is a bit rich. The Nats haven't been able to convince enough voters that they would handle the country's economy any better than Kircaldy boy Broon does. I have to say I've never met or even heard a single Scot rejecting a vote for the SNP for the reasons you describe.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
You say you feel affinity with Scottish club Celtic yet you are anti-Scottish. You are typical of the mindset among some Celtic fans which only emphasises the differences between Ireland and Scotland.

Please explain to me where I stated I was anti-Scottish in my last post on this thread?

Regarding emphasising the differences between Scotland and Ireland are you saying it is wrong to state cetain facts in case they may be unpleasent to some people, although who would find my remarks in the post above offensive Im not quiet sure!?
Personally I think the way this thread has developed its only right that all aspects of the argument should be discussed as the "Oldfirm" itself is not something that has just sprung up over night

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Jam

And trivial arguments about which soldiers are stationed in N. Ireland miss the point entirely (by Lionel, not you Paddy). This is a conflict area (and spare me any potential ramblings about the the injustice of partition). It is 2003, not 1921, and the UK government is bending over backwards to manage the situation.

That point was simply inserted to show a historical time line and to give another side to the history put forward by Paddy, nothing less nothing more.
However seeing as you have made an issue of it I will tell you that there is nothing trivail about the issue of soldiars stationed in N Ireland and your trivialization of the issues speaks volumes for you as a human being!

Be assured that I will not mention the "injustice of partition" (where the hell did this come from anyway? ) as I see no point now or in the future discussing such a "trivail" issue with such a closed minded individual as yourself!

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I'm, er, no fan of the Old Firm, but blaming them for the SNP's weakness is a bit rich. The Nats haven't been able to convince enough voters that they would handle the country's economy any better than Kircaldy boy Broon does. I have to say I've never met or even heard a single Scot rejecting a vote for the SNP for the reasons you describe.

Some Celtic fans are anti-Scottish nationalist while being pro-Irish Republican. They should realise that an independent Scotland would mean the split-up of the United Kingdom and Irish reunification would be more likely.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz

Alot of the misery inflicted on Ireland (specialy in the last few hundred years) has been at the hands of Scottish people IMHO.

That sounds a bit anti-Scottish.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
That sounds a bit anti-Scottish.

During the second world war Nazi Germany killed 5 million jews, as well as a large number of disabled people, gays, and gypsies.
More racist violence broke out after the collapse of the Berlin wall and the unification of the two Germanys, east and west during which time dozens of migrant workers and asylum seekrs were killed mainly in poorer areas of eastern Germany.

Does this make me "anti-German"?

[Lionel Hutz]

To be honest Paddy reading back that post it makes me look like a smart arse but your accusing me of something that I am not which really ****es me off!
I hope we can get back to the topic and leave the accusations alone?

[Paddy Ramone]

What about the misery inflicted on the Irish people by the English, the Vikings etc? Also a large element of the British Army used to put down rebellions in Ireland were Irish.

[BanagherOK!]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Some Celtic fans are anti-Scottish nationalist while being pro-Irish Republican. They should realise that an independent Scotland would mean the split-up of the United Kingdom and Irish reunification would be more likely.

I remember reading an article about the height of the Scots Nationalists power in the west of Scotland late 70's early 80's
when the leader of the party attended the annual Orange order Parade (held in some large park in the city center) and stood on a platform and said that Catholics were the real enemy of Scotland. The Scots Nats quickly denied this was a party political statement and claimed he was attending as a private individual,,,,,the man in question (elderly if I remember right) was quckly replaced but the damage was done.

[Paddy Ramone]

I don't see how Catholics of Irish descent in Scotland voting for the Unionist British Labour Party is going to bring about a United Ireland. Look at the following which discredit your notion of a link between the Orange Order and the Scottish National Party.

www.sundayherald.com/16837
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/tt18.htm
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/gillies.htm

All Irish Nationalists should be Scottish Nationalists as well. Erin go bragh agus Alba gu brath!

[BanagherOK!]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
I don't see how Catholics of Irish descent in Scotland voting for the Unionist British Labour Party is going to bring about a United Ireland. Look at the following which discredit your notion of a link between the Orange Order and the Scottish National Party.

www.sundayherald.com/16837
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/tt18.htm
www.siol-nan-gaidheal.com/gillies.htm

All Irish Nationalists should be Scottish Nationalists as well. Erin go bragh agus Alba gu brath!

The Scots Nats trying to brush under the carpet the Orange rantings of an earlier party leader of course would condem any remarks made by some Lodge Grand secretary in Scotland which contained undertones of violence (it would be political suicide not too) There is some guy in the in the Scottish classical music scene who is well known over there (sorry his name escapes me,,,McMillan perhaps) set the cat amongst the pigeons a year or two ago by saying that anti catholic sentiment in Scotland was Scotlands secret shame. I think the Catholics of Irish descent would feel the bigots in high places would have more power in a Independant Scotland,,,voting Labour seems the lesser of all evils