Celtic Discussion

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Jam


Liverpool also sing the fields of Athenry now so I'd day their links are all but gone.

I have to say I'm genuinely surprised at the support some have here for essentially foreign teams just cos of a link to Ireland be it the flag or religion or whatever. If some English team flew the Saltire I widnae gie a phuck. In fact it might even annoy me a bit - wave yer ain flag kind of thing.

Liverpool sing "The Fields of Anfield Road" a version of the "The Fields of Athenry" and so do Rangers. The Rangers version is called "Hands Across the Sea". I think there still is a little bit of an affinity between Ulster Loyalists and Liverpool. I saw on television the night of the Lennon inicident, some young Northern Ireland fans wearing Liverpool tops and carrying NI "Red Hand of Ulster flags".

Also on a documentary on Carlisle's Irish manager last night saw a Shrewsbury fan waving a saltire. Must have been to wind up Carlisle fans becase they are a border team or maybe there's some Scottish connection.

Millwall were founded by the Scottish workers in a jam factory in the East End. Wore the Scottish lion rampant as a badge. Don't know if thy fly the Scottish flag though. Don't think there is a mad rush from Scotland to support to them.

[Bluebeard]

Originally posted by Jam
If you want to find Irish clubs I suggest you look no further than Ireland. They might not be that great but they are your clubs. I support Dunfermline Athletic - they are crap too - disnae make me support Celtic or Rangers though.

Nice one Jam, hit the nail on the head!

By the way, how are Gary Dempsey and Noel Hunt, two old Blues, doing for you this season so far? As far as I know, their presence at Dunfermline means that you have the highest number of Irish players in the squad of a Scottish premier team right now (do correct me if I'm wrong, I know someone will want to!), and seeing as they are old eL players, the answer to the question of who we should follow in Scotland is obviously Dunfermline Athletic

[Jam]

hunt has been injured start of this season but has shown that he has to be an Ireland prospect - quick, skilful and up for it - shame he was out on the first day of the season would have been a thorn in the side of the Tims. Last season the Huns kicked him off the park as he took the pish ootae them - to our delight. Dempsey is decent as always.

Of course you shid support 'The Pars'. It's the natural choice fur all Irish people.

[gspain]

Ritchie Byrne also gone to the Pars now too.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Jam

I have to say I'm genuinely surprised at the support some have here for essentially foreign teams just cos of a link to Ireland be it the flag or religion or whatever. If some English team flew the Saltire I widnae gie a phuck. In fact it might even annoy me a bit - wave yer ain flag kind of thing.

Born in England to Irish parents who had to leave because of the lack of work and poverty I feel a great affinity with Celtic fc and see it in some respects as a monument to the millions of Irish who had to leave their homeland for various reasons of the centuries!

While there is a history of immagration in Scotland, some of it forced eg clearing of the Highlands and islands I dont think you can say it has had as big an impact on the mentality of the Scottish people as immagration has had on the Irish and would say its not fair to compare the Scottish image of what constitutes a "foreign team" to that of the Irish people!

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
A club called Hibernian which means 'Irish' is hardly disassociated from its Irish origins.

Also the "Roy of the Rovers" badge as you called it, was in the traditional Irish colours of green, gold and silver ( the modern colours are green, white and orange ). The old flag of Ireland was a green flag with a golden harp with silver strings.

Of these facts Im sure your right!

But are you saying that my previous post about Hibs clear attempts to disassociate itself from its Irish roots are not true?

[Jam]

Irish Protestants left too. No-one supports them. Fair enough you can support who you like but I think the support Celtic (and for Rangers amongst Irish Protestants in part) has at least part of its motivation in sectarianism or imaginary football shirted political struggles.

I do accept your point about foreigness given the large Irish diaspora aornud the globe.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Jam
Hibs aren't really associated with Irishness at all. Very few tricolores at easter road - only to wind up huns and jambos. Celtic are much more associated with it but it's a kind of ridiculous Irishness IMO practices by those with tenuous links to Ireland (plastic paddies central IMO).

As someone who was not born in Ireland but considers myself Irish Im wondering if I would be considered a 'plastic paddy'?
Like many who go regularly to Parkhead its a way of connection with my "Irishness", there are many other ways, but thats one of the ones I have choosen as in my families case imagration has been a major factor and I see Celtic as a symbol of Irish imagration and the fact that those who move to foreign lands can prosper while retaining cultural links.

To be honest the reason I ask this because this "plastic paddy" term bothers me!
Are people who go to carnival in London to celebrate their afro caribbean links, even though some probably couldnt point it out
on a map at this, stage lumped in the same boat as the plastic paddies? or what about those within the asian communities within Britain, who still consider themselves to be Indians or Pakistanies, are they deluding themselves also?

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Jam
Irish Protestants left too. No-one supports them. Fair enough you can support who you like but I think the support Celtic (and for Rangers amongst Irish Protestants in part) has at least part of its motivation in sectarianism or imaginary football shirted political struggles.

For some I know it does, I know some of them personally!

But is that justification enough to tar everybody with the same brush?

[Jam]

Well being from Scotland - you should also understand that it's a phuqin national embarrassment to have our 2 major clubs embroiled in sectarianism which of course many Scots indulge in (they'd feel my wrath too). But some Irish do too and it stinks

[Jam]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
As someone who was not born in Ireland but considers myself Irish Im wondering if I would be considered a 'plastic paddy'?
Like many who go regularly to Parkhead its a way of connection with my "Irishness", there are many other ways, but thats one of the ones I have choosen as in my families case imagration has been a major factor and I see Celtic as a symbol of Irish imagration and the fact that those who move to foreign lands can prosper while retaining cultural links.

To be honest the reason I ask this because this "plastic paddy" term bothers me!
Are people who go to carnival in London to celebrate their afro caribbean links, even though some probably couldnt point it out
on a map at this, stage lumped in the same boat as the plastic paddies? or what about those within the asian communities within Britain, who still consider themselves to be Indians or Pakistanies, are they deluding themselves also?

I don't know anything about you so I couldn't say. What I can say is that I know of plenty of people in Scotland with distant links to Ireland (including myself) and there are some who go way overboard with being Irish. I accept the fact they consider themselves Irish but personally I don't conside them that.

Similarly, there are guys who go to Scotland games who are English too but have some Scottish roots. I accept they consider themselves Scottish but depending on the person will determine whether I actually consider them Scottish. Just because they say they are doesn't mean i have to consider them that.

I'm fae Pakistan likes. Did ye no ken that?

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Jam
Well being from Scotland - you should also understand that it's a phuqin national embarrassment to have our 2 major clubs embroiled in sectarianism which of course many Scots indulge in (they'd feel my wrath too). But some Irish do too and it stinks

I take your point and admit that there is a secterian problem at Celtic fc and it pains me to think that Celtic fans judge and abuse people on the grounds of colour or religion!

But to say that Celtic is embroiled in secterianism I cannot accpet that at all!
Very little secterianism at Parkhead anymore and while there is alot of "political" singing at away matches, which Im sure you dont agree with.
But political songs and secterian songs are two different things!

Isnt it also true that both Hibs and Hearts considered banning national flags in recent times as they were being used to inflame passions and that the biggest security alert of the season now is the meeetings of Rangers and Aberdeen?

Again I stress that Celtic arent innocent but considering that we get 60,000 at every home game I think the crowds are very well behaved
Its also worth noting that there isnt a club the length and breath of Britain that has a crowd that accurately reflects the ethnic backround of the area in which the ground is situated, usually inner city areas!

[Jam]

At East End Park on the first day of the season they sung "Lie down you Huns" in reference to Eng*ish pr*ck Sutton's comments on Dunfermline supposedly lying down = sectarian.

Look I know the huns are worse than the Tims on this issue but Celtic have a sectarian element of their support too - who sing songs about a difficult political problem in another country not cos they care but more cos it's a us vs them type culture and Scottish society is in some way out to oppress catholics

I accept that my reasons for disliking the OF are different from those here who dislike. My principle reason for disliking the OF is that they are basically anti-Scottish. Window dress it all you like but that's what it is. A quick view around Parkheid and Ibrox as to the flags being woven and the songs being sung will confirm that.

I also think from an Irish persepctive that Celtic don't represent Ireland either but rather a romantic if somewhat ridiculous political struggle involving beer, football shirts and stick on sentimental tears. Adams on his time in prison, whether you like him or not, commented once that he couldnae gie a phuq aboot the Celtic score. That's realpolitik of northern Ireland not the nonsense that eminates from Glasgow - a different country.

[Jam]

the Irish who went to Scotland went in the main over 100 years ago and to all extent and purposes aren't Irish.

[pete]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
Some look on them as being disloyal for leaving in the first place....

Too right! Just cos theres a famine is no reason to jump so to speak.

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Conor74
Umm, hate to spoil your evening but you are the very essence of a "Plastic Paddy".

The only condolence I can offer is not to take it too badly, there's nothing you can do about it and noone really judges people by whether or not their mother gave birth in Ireland, England or Katmandu. Though some get very sensitive about it so it can be useful wind up...

Born in England to Irish parents!
Who moved back when I was only 6 months old!
BTW the brought me back with them!

Eevn though I spent only 6 months of my life in England and didnt have a trace of an accent I was teased at school, might even go so far as calling it bullying, not for long though as Im not the type to allow people to take to many liberties!
I do however remember one young lad in secondary school getting a rather sever beating for daring to wear an Irish jersey because he was born in England..........was accused of being a plastic paddy and decided to defend himself against the accusation and paid for it!

Now to me this behavour is bigoted and indeed from seeing the term "plastic paddy" in action and witnessing how its use effects people I view it as being a racist term!
As you obviously have no problems with the term I can only conclude that you hold racist views?

So the only condolences I can offer you is to not take it to badly, theres LOTS you can do to change your attitude to other people and most will give ye the benifit of the doubt

[Scotsman]

I'm a Celtic fan and certainly not anti-Scottish - If anything I'm pro-Scottish.

I'm a true Scot born and bred and would love to see more Saltires at Parkhead.

Also a point about Scots immigration.

We do think the same as yourself about migration from the homeland.

The Scots suffered the Highland Clearances and this is remebered in Canada and America and we Scots remeber were they 1st landed and eventually migrated to and we have a soft spot for these countries.

So you see the thinking is similar.

Scotland has affiliations with Canada, America, Australia to name but a few.

So much so we have loads of pipe bands all over the world...recapturing that piece of Scottish culture.

With regards to football - A man from Glasgow started Sunderland FC.

A Scotsman started Brazilian football.

Religion plays a massive part in the affilialtion with Ireland/Irish migration to Catholic Celtic fans.

Example: Person has an Irish surname and is Catholic - They cling onto the whole Irish thing more than Protestant's with Irish names.

I have seen this Scenario for years.

On my mum's side there are alot of Irish surnames: Rooney, McGuigan, McCann, Maguire, Mullen.

My mum/Gran and their family do have a soft spot for Ireland.

Some are obsessed but that's because of bigotry, were as my Gran is more nostalgic as alot of her Great Aunts etc were 1st generation Irish.

My wife who is protestant grandad had a surname of Donnelly but they don't mention the whole Irish thing at all.

Yes there was the whole suppresion of Catholics in Scotland - Irish got it when they 1st moved here and Scots Catholics had to hide in sheds etc to be educated and have mass...Shocking.

The Church of Scotland has recently admitted anti-Cathoic acts and this is agood start to remove this from society.

All these years after a religous revolt in the 16th century!!

Madness.

Bigotry still remains but it has thankfully got better but the core will still remain for some years if not forever.

Alot of people like myself have mixed marriages in Scotland and that's a good thing.

Just wanted to clear up a few things - Ta

[Jam]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
Oh so you are now the arbiter of how Irish or non Irish people are. We all bow to your superior knowledge....

get a grip - over 100 years ago - green mist methinks. They are Scots - often bigoted too. The same Irish who emigrated to England 100 years ago don't consider themselves Irish at all - why? possibly cos there is less sectarian conflict in England.

I'm not the arbiter but I have my opinion - what people say about themselves isn't the arbiter either - there is such a thing as delusion you know and when you are talking several generations from that nationality I don't think it's unreasonable to describe that as being in the realms of delusion. As far as Lionel is concerned - fair enough - 1st generation sounds reasonable - but 2 or 3 generations down the line having never lived in Ireland would seem to be stretching it (and that's where the term plastic paddy or in my case plastic Jock would be used).

The point is Scotsman is that there aren't any at Parkheid (1 or 2 compared to about 10,000 tricolores) and the few they are at Castle Doom are surrounded in Union Jacks making it a very loyalist image of Scotland.

And that's why the gruesome twosome particular Huns are scum

[Jam]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
Call it anything you like the fact is the Irish traditions have been handed down generation on generation. It also helps the Ireland and Scotland are near each other with many thousands of Scottish born irish going back to the land of their forefathers.

You may not like to accept it but many 2nd and 3rd generation Irish still give their allegence to Ireland over scotland. One manifestation is indeed the many thousands of Tricolours at Paradise owned by Scottish born Celts....

no they are not - Celtic has become much more Irish in the last twenty years than it ever was in the 95 years before that. It's to do with lots of things - Rangers becoming more unionist in part as a response to Scotland becoming more nationalist in the 70s and 80s and beyond - Souness and England players at Ibrox, the changing fan base of the Tartan Army, the rise of RoI in the 80s as a decent fitba side, the conflict in Northern Ireland.

Thousands returning to live in Ireland from Scotland ma erse. Maist of them have never even been there. Celtic mist methinks. My Grandad come over from Ireland as a young child - he never supported anyone other than Dunfermline and Scotland. At that time that was the norm. Times were hard and people wanted to integrate. This is a sentimental response several generations later that's all - not some yearning to go back to the auld land - if that was the case they would go and live there.

I like Ireland - it's got a great culture and a guid laugh. But this overly sentimental response manifesting itself in some people considering themselves Irish (which happens with people of Scottish descent too of several generations ago towards Scotland - although not as common) is embarrassing.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Silvio Dante
Wrong once again Paddy. You make this so easy its embarassing. It was I who corrected someone else about McCann's origins. I refer you the third post on page 28 of this thread.

Must try harder buddy....

Sorry for confusing you with someone else.