Celtic Discussion

[lopez]

Apologies for throwing a spanner in the works, but Hibernian and Celtic are really two clubs in very different circumstances. For whatever reason - well, probably more likely due to the sectarianism that existed and still exists in the west of Scotland - the culture amid which Celtic was created has been preserved with far more in tact than that of Hibernian.

Of course, I'm not trying to pass Celtic as possessing a "true Irish culture" or whatever, such a claim would be ridiculous.

I am a Celtic fan though

A sensible post at last. Pity you spoilt it by admitting you're a Celtic fan.

I'd agree that there is a certain amount of glory-hunting with Irish football fans supporting any team outside their home town or area that they have no connection with (eg: themselves or a parent born or lived in said place). However the Irishness of Celtic was long apparent before Sky TV came on the scene and half of Ireland started wearing Celtic shirts. Look at the photos of 'What's The Story' by my old friend Shay Blair and another bloke I can't remember, or Mary Hunt's Euro 88 or Italia 90 diaries, and the Celtic shirts are ever-present.

I'm reading another book at the moment that should be no doubt placed on the eoinh literature pyre. Called 'Irish: The Remarkable Saga of a Nation and a City' by John Burrowes, it is the first history written of the Irish in Glasgow which doesn't centre around Celtic, beginning with a chapter on the luxurious travel arrangements of those bound for Scotland around the time of the famine. The story of the SS L*****derry makes particularly grim reading where a quarter of its passengers were suffocated below decks on a overnight journey in a heavy storm from Sligo to Derry. Not that I suspect this incident was ever brought up in an Irish school's history lesson (tut, tut: Can't dwell on the past can we?). Anyways, despite being about the city's Irish community, the book still manages to have a whole chapter on the 'supposidly' Irish links of Celtic FC.

[eoinh]

Ireland is a nation of many influences. What you are doing is just concentrating on one tiny aspect of it while ignoring everyother aspect.

[liam88]

Apologies for throwing a spanner in the works, but Hibernian and Celtic are really two clubs in very different circumstances. For whatever reason - well, probably more likely due to the sectarianism that existed and still exists in the west of Scotland - the culture amid which Celtic was created has been preserved with far more in tact than that of Hibernian.

Of course, I'm not trying to pass Celtic as possessing a "true Irish culture" or whatever, such a claim would be ridiculous.

I am a Celtic fan though

Welcome abored Ephor

[Junior]

Ireland is a nation of many influences. What you are doing is just concentrating on one tiny aspect of it while ignoring everyother aspect.

what you are doing is simply ignoring FACTs surrounding Celtics formation, history and fanbase.

[lopez]

Ireland is a nation of many influences. What you are doing is just concentrating on one tiny aspect of it while ignoring everyother aspect.

Well let's see! What has been the most overriding aspect of Irish history over the last two hundred years?

Act of Union? Lasted 120 years in it's entirety although still going on today viz a viz the North!

Independence? 82 years. At first limited and still not taking in all the country.

The troubles? 25 - 30 years recently. Couple of years either side of WW1 and a civil war between two shades of nationalists.

Socialism? Yeah right!

Emigration? From a population in Ireland of around 9m in 1841 to over 5m in 2001. Bearing in mind that most European countries population have increased in that time, this is quite startling. England's increased from around 13m to 50m in that period. Ireland would be looking at around 40m people by now in comparison. Mass emigration stretched from before the Famine (mostly Protestants) to around the early to mid 1990s. With the exception of a brief period in the 1960s and 70s, only the present Celtic Tiger and the North's Peace Dividend has halted emigration from Ireland and that now it's population is actually growing. Looking back, there is no guarantee that emigration will not return and the Irish government will have to go grovelling to the US arguing that they take some people off their hands while other more worthy populations freeing famine and war should be told to f*ck off.

I would argue that this has been the most important event to have happened to Ireland over the last 200 years. I would also like to know how much of this subject was ever discussed in Irish schools (either in History or some other subject like Sociology), because the level of ignorance on such an important event is quite frankly, laughable aswell as highly irritating. (EG: What's an Englishman doing s'porting Ireland? How come you're not at Wembley? etc.,etc, ad nauseam)

[eoinh]

Lopez i'm perfectly aware of all this.

My brother lives happily in England and i suspect wont be coming back. If you can find one post where i even hint that you or persons in your situation should support england post it up.

But the point you keep pounding on about is that i should support celtic is laughable. I feel no connection whatsoever to them. If there were thousands of people in Ireland who supported Brann Bergen because of Bergens deep historical roots with Ireland that would annoy me to. But as Brann dont enjoy major success that doesnt happen. (I live in Waterford which has many viking links - even the name of the county itself "ford" = "fjord").

No one can deny that the vast majority who support celtic only do so because they are successful. Most of them have probably never been to a live match in their lives and wouldnt recognise a football if it hit them in their face.

A curious anomoly is that most emmigrants or their offspring tend to support their home town not the clubs of the towns they live in. You dont find mant Turks in Germany supporting german clubs. They are all besiktas, Trabzonspor or Ankaragucu supporters. Not many Turkish based greeks in Istanbul would support Fenerbahce for instance. They are more likely to be Panathinaikos fans. In Ireland we get the reverse

[Plastic Paddy]

A curious anomoly is that most emmigrants or their offspring tend to support their home town not the clubs of the towns they live in. You dont find mant Turks in Germany supporting german clubs. They are all besiktas, Trabzonspor or Ankaragucu supporters. Not many Turkish based greeks in Istanbul would support Fenerbahce for instance. They are more likely to be Panathinaikos fans. In Ireland we get the reverse

Well, if the standard of eircom League football was any good, we second- and third-genners would support Irish clubs instead, wouldn't we?

PP

[lopez]

But the point you keep pounding on about is that i should support celtic is laughable. I feel no connection whatsoever to them.

I've never said that you should support Celtic. I don't support Celtic myself. I go to their games in London to meet up with my mates - our Northern friend Duncan Gardner did likewise - and get hammered (unfortunately too hammered last time). Why would I want to encourage someone to support Celtic.

I've consistently championed Irish domestic football. It p*sses me off to hear about Celtic fans questioning the Irishness of St Pats fans during their match. And I've seen first hand the lunatic fringe of Celtic support both in Ireland and Glasgow.

However, Celtic is not Brann Bergen. Largescale Irish emigration into Scotland finished in the fifties. You cannot compare the connection with a bunch of cow-horned rapists a thousand years ago. As for the Turkish analogy, you're right. I support Deportivo for that reason. I don't follow an English club. Many 2G come from areas without a EL team or have two parents from different countries, but you can see that plenty of 2G posters on here have EL club avatars. Please DH, could we have a SJG to keep Davros happy? I've personally seen EL clubs in Europe more over the past 15 years than Celtic. I would have gone to Lille, but I fancied Depor in Monaco with Conchita. Lille or Monaco? Which would you prefer? Conchita said if it's anywhere with Dubs, I won't be coming home with my cojones.

And I've yet to see an answer from anyone about what they learnt about emigration in Irish schools. Please!!!!!!!! I'm interested...seriously!

[eoinh]

And I've yet to see an answer from anyone about what they learnt about emigration in Irish schools. Please!!!!!!!! I'm interested...seriously!

We agree totally. I dont why we are arguing. i have no problem with Irish people supporting teams of the cities they live in abroad. Im sure I'ld do it myself.

As for emigration studies in school. I think we learnt about why it happened - potatoe crop failure, large families, inaction of the majority of the British
authorities, no large scale industry and tarrifs on anything irish produced sent to england causing no industrial development and hence no job opportunities.

However the experiences of the Irish abroad and their life in Britain, Austalia, New Zealand, South africa, The carribean etc was totally overlooked.

I did my leaving in 1988 so things might have changed since then. Doubt it though.

Oh and happy birthday! Youre one of the few on here older than me. Congrats

[Plastic Paddy]

And I've yet to see an answer from anyone about what they learnt about emigration in Irish schools. Please!!!!!!!! I'm interested...seriously!

Well, those of us hailing from the diaspora county of Shepherd's Bush who actually gave a **** in the first place had to study to Masters' level to find the answers, so I'm not surprised that all the ard scóil sheep have never heard of it... are you?

PP