Celtic Discussion

[Jim Smith]

In fairness the SNP have worked hard over the last 30 years to rid the party of the bigots and extremists. The Trade Union movement in Britian in the 50's and 60's was racist in the extreme - does that mean that the movememt still is?

The Labour Party have done and will do absoultely anything to thwart Nationalist aspirations in Scotland. A few years ago in Glasgow Central they made their candidate change his name from Mike to Mick and got him to tone down his English accent because they were worried that the SNP was more Irish than their candidiate. The Labour Party are a unionist party. They always have been and I can't see that changing.

[Paddy Ramone]

Wasn't the great Irish Republican and a patron of Celtic FC, Michael Davitt sympathetic to Scottish Nationalism? He was prime mover in the creation of the Highland Land League in Scotland which eventually became part of the Scottish National Party. Brother Walfrid at the formation of Celtic FC in 1888, even quoted a speech from Davitt about the Irish and Scottish national struggles being the one and the same which is why the name Celtic was chosen instead of Glasgow Hibernian.

Somewhere along the line Celtic forgot their original principles and became a mirror image of Rangers. The name Celtic was meant to unite Catholic and Protestant and Irish and Scottish but instead nowadays it is associated only with Irishness and Catholicism. Bob Kelly the Celtic chairman in the 50's always hankered after an all-Catholic side. Kelly was also an advocate of a Great Britain side. Celtic are as much a pro-British side as Rangers as is evident by their demands to join the English Premiership.

It's all a case of divide and conquer by the powers that be in the British establishment. Some Celtic fans can't get their head around the fact that Presbyterians can be proud of Gaelic culture and heritage as much as Catholics. Most Gaelic speakers in Scotland are Presbyterian. Also the first Irish Republicans, the United Irishmen were mainly Presbyterian and were linked to the United Scotsmen who wanted an indepenent Scottish Republic.

I think Hibernian FC are closer to the original principles of Celtic FC, they draw their support from both Catholics and Protestants and are proud of being Scottish AND their Irish origins. Also the great James Connolly was a fan of the Hibees. What stronger Republican creditionals can you have?

The simple fact is Celtic FC are a conservative Catholic pro-unionist football club who benefit from the sectarian divide in Scotland. It is in Celtic's interest to keep the divisions alive in the West of Scotland. Celtic are part of a cartel with Rangers and benefited from Rangers anti-Catholic policies because they could have the pick of the Catholics in Scotland. Celtic and Rangers are two sides of the same coin. They need each other to survive.

Also don't Orangemen want to maintain the Union. Surely this is the the opposite of everything the SNP stand for.

[Scotsman]

Hey troops this has turned a wee bit political.

Lionel I did think you sounded a wee bit Anti-Scottish but you did mention facts - I could it turn round and say that alot of innocent folk have died at the hands or Irishmen - IE Bombs etc - Now I know nothing of this topic and care not to and I also realise that not ALL irish folk condemn this.

I have to say that there was a saying for SNP - Soon NO Pope.

Alot of people do forget that Celtic was named this to unite the Scots and Irish.

The whole "I'm Irish" nonsense does exist and it gets boring.

Celtic and Rangers do need each other - You're quite right Paddy.

You certianly sound knowledgable - I'm impressed.

I'm a Labour man and my Father was in the Executive
Board at one point - There was no religous reasons for this - Working class background and the Tories certainly don't help the working class.

The Gaels of Scotland hung on to their Catholic views for as long as they could and some fled to Ireland because of persecution - IE: Highland Clearances.

Mary Queen Of Scots was Catholic and her Son James V of Scotland became James I of England - Did he realise the effect of this??

I think not.

Scotland does suffer from bigotry and to hide it is to encourage it.

Get rid of ALL walks - Orange and Hibernian.

What does Hibernian mean? - Excuse my ignorance.

We Scots did suffer like you Irish at the hands of the English also.

Glasgow was up in arms at the Union of the Crowns.

Anyway do you all really care about the religous aspect?

I know I don't.

I know a shed loads of Celtic fans who are proud Scots and rightly so.

Goodnight and God Bless.

[James]

Originally posted by Scotsman
I know a shed loads of Celtic fans who are proud Scots and rightly so.
.

celtic ARE a scottish team
i know aload of cork city diehards that are proud irishmen and rightly so, whats your point

[Scotsman]

Well if you had read the posts before hand you would understand that I am pointing out that not ALL Celtic fans try to be Irish.

Or a you hust looking for an arguement - Run away to school now!

[S.E.P.1990]

PaddyRamone - u sound very informed and it is a entertaining piece. i am just a bit bemused that u r desperate to link teams with ideals and, yet, u criticise (rightly) the fact that the Old Firm need seperate religious ideals to survive.

I think Hibernian FC are closer to the original principles of Celtic FC, they draw their support from both Catholics and Protestants and are proud of being Scottish AND their Irish origins. Also the great James Connolly was a fan of the Hibees. What stronger Republican creditionals can you have?

I am confused does this mean that because Catholics and Protestants support a team that they automatically become a republican team???

Plus I am not sure if Scottish nationalists would agree with the fact that nationalists in the north arent exactly bosom pals of the Ulster/Scots community!! Unless of course u r equating nationalism with religion - in which case Hibs couldnt possibly be republican if they take their support from both religious communities?

[Jim Smith]

Originally posted by S.E.P.1990

I am confused does this mean that because Catholics and Protestants support a team that they automatically become a republican team???

I think the "Republican Credentials" relate to James Connolly rather than the religeous mix of the fans. It saddens me to see teams defined on the religion of their fan base - I didn't realsie that football as we know it dates back to the middle of the 17th centuary

Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Plus I am not sure if Scottish nationalists would agree with the fact that nationalists in the north arent exactly bosom pals of the Ulster/Scots community!!

The Scottish nationalists and the Ulster/Scots community in the North have very little in common politically. There is little or no political connection between the various 'nationalist' movements. OK there was the SRSP/SNLA and a supposed link to the INLA but we are talking way out on the fringes here.

This has come rather a long way off topic....

[Éanna]

Originally posted by Jim Smith
SRSP/SNLA and a supposed link to the INLA

wasn't that one man and an envelope full of powder or something?

[Jim Smith]

Originally posted by Éanna
wasn't that one man and an envelope full of powder or something?

Off the top of my head your thinking of the anthrax hoax to St Andrews?

They have a bit more of a history than that, bank robbery and the like. It all seemed like a bit of a joke (capture Oban and spread out from there....) untill some bloke in Aberdeen was arrested with all sorts of "heavy ordinance" and military explosives that I think were supposedly supplied by Lybia. These people really are in the extreme and (fortunately) few are far between.

[aussie_tim_1798]

while it may be true that neither side of the Old Firm would be as big as they are now without the other, it is certainly not true that Celtic need Rangers to be a big club.

Celtic were enormously successful from the moment they entered competition - at which time there was no bad blood between them and Rangers. Indeed, it was written in a chronicle in the early 1890s that "the Light Blues are a favorite amongst the Celtic crowd".

it was only when Celtic's success became too great for the establishment to tolerate, that the Glaswegian people, both high up and at grassroots, began looking around for a Protestant club to compete with this Catholic upstart. (it's hard to overestimate how fervent anti-Catholic sentiment was in 19th century Scotland - before Irish immigration, there were more anti-Catholic organizations in Glasgow than there were Catholics themselves!)

the two candidates were Queen's Park and Glasgow Rangers, but since the former doggedly maintained their amatuer status, it was the next most successful club who carried the torch for mainstream Scottish society. and that was the Club's priority for their entire history, right up until the 1980s when it no longer became feasible to remain officially sectarian. but at the grassroots level the culture is the same: those who really love the club, love it because of its opposition of Celtic and all that Celtic stands for. Rangers never had any connection to Ulster, yet fans fly the Unionist Northern Ireland St. George's Cross, give a "red-hand salute" (that they themselves invented) and sing songs about The Sash and the Orangemen etc. even though these things have nothing to do with the club.

so i hope you can see how it is plainly a one-way dependent relationship. Glasgow Rangers would just be another Scottish club (albeit a stronger one, but probably only marginally stronger than say Hearts or Aberdeen pre-1990s) were it not for Celtic. whereas Celtic's culture is one that is 90% pro-Ireland and the Celtic people, and less than 10% anti-British (and perhaps 0.1% anti-Protestant). let me put it this way: if Celtic re-located to Ireland, virtually nothing would change in terms of culture. if Rangers re-located to England, their flying of the Union Flag and singing of Rule Britannia etc would become quite irrelavant, even laughable. worse still, if Rangers stayed in Scotland, without Celtic, they would lose all identity whatsoever, and would simply be a pro-Union team singing their songs to deaf ears (although some other smaller Scottish clubs have taken to singing Flower of Scotland back at the Gers when they sing Rule Britiannia )