Shannon Airport Discussion

[Dotsy]

The way I see it IMPACT see this as the thin end of the wedge. Start off with a few pilots in Belfast on a bit less money, before you know it you've a load of Eastern European pilots based at a true low cost hub on half the money and new Irish pilots can't get "decent" paid work. Ie similar to the Irish Ferries example mentioned earlier.

As for FF, I'm delighted to see them in another ridiculous, yet complete foreseeable quagmire. This is what happens when you let morons (O'Dea typifying them) into power.

Did they think AL were going to come over all benevolent and semi-state just because they still own a minority shareholding?

But the Irish hubs will be staffed by locally based pilots who will continue to benefit from the local wages, terms and conditions etc. That is where the pilots unions have a part play. If the routes out of Dublin/Cork/Shannon are profitable they will stay here and will be staffed by Irish recruited pilots. That's how private companies operate. Surely the pilots knew this when they took shares as part of the privatisation.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Did they, from what I remember of the news at the time the reason they held the 25% share was to stop a hostile takeover from another airline, like what happened to eircom?

...for fear that an airline behind such a takeover would sell, move or otherwise dispose of assets like the Heathrow landing slots. Pretty much exactly what Aer Lingus themselves are doing.

So do we have to wait for Aer Lingus to move on Dublins Heathrow slots before the state decides it's time to intervene? As things stand there's little point I can see in the state having any stake in the airline at all.

The fact that they have a 25% shareholding doesn't make a difference in reality so again why is this situation different (as far as the unions are concerned) to other companys relocating out of Ireland.

Question for me? Well I didn't raise any points about the unions but I'll chuck in a speculation that it's about protecting their terms of employment. Belfast rates today Bratislava rates tomorrow?

[Newryrep]

The original crux of the matter has been lost - what is Shannon worry ?

loss of the slots to a world hub or loss of slots to the UK ? as there could be solutions to either

As regards Aer Lingus, pensions are a ticking time bomb, companies are changing them as they appear to be unsustainable . It was not envisaged that people would live that long after retirement.

Within reason local pay and conditions seem reasonable to me, for years there has been a London weighting due to the cost of living. I personnally dont think its unreasonalbe.

[OneRedArmy]

...for fear that an airline behind such a takeover would sell, move or otherwise dispose of assets like the Heathrow landing slots. Pretty much exactly what Aer Lingus themselves are doing.

So do we have to wait for Aer Lingus to move on Dublins Heathrow slots before the state decides it's time to intervene? As things stand there's little point I can see in the state having any stake in the airline at all.


Question for me? Well I didn't raise any points about the unions but I'll chuck in a speculation that it's about protecting their terms of employment. Belfast rates today Bratislava rates tomorrow?

3 flights a day to Shannon are not in the national interest. Thats the long and the short of it.

Great article in yesterdays Tribune parodying the same thing going on in the UK and the laughability of expecting the whole Cabinet, including the Taoiseach, to end their holidays to address it. The article also rubbished the "research" produced by IBEC and the pro-Shannon lobby about the claimed economic damage the withdrawal would cause. Eg. over 50% of respondants said the loss of the Heathrow route would negatively impact their ability to ship cargo.............when Aer Lingus stopped shipping cargo on its European flights years ago

Also, Belfast International's catchment area takes in all of Donegal and some of Sligo, Leitrim, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth as well, which further complicates the Goverments position as they can't be seen to favour one area over another.

[Lionel Ritchie]

3 flights a day to Shannon are not in the national interest. Thats the long and the short of it.

So says you ORA. It's a profitable, well subscribed route is it not?

Great article in yesterdays Tribune parodying the same thing going on in the UK and the laughability of expecting the whole Cabinet, including the Taoiseach, to end their holidays to address it. .

Then they were comparing an apple with an orange and furthermore a big apple with a small orange and further again I think you and the Tribune know that.

The article also rubbished the "research" produced by IBEC and the pro-Shannon lobby about the claimed economic damage the withdrawal would cause. Eg. over 50% of respondants said the loss of the Heathrow route would negatively impact their ability to ship cargo.............when Aer Lingus stopped shipping cargo on its European flights years ago .

You're not going to get me sticking up for IBEC. Those fcukers want it both ways and anyways the whole time.

One of the annecdotes I heard that convinced me it was wrong that these flights were being cut -for I can only ask you to take my word for it that I didn't instinctively think it was a big deal -was told by an American tourist.

He comes over to this neck of the woods on golf holidays so he's the type of high spend per head tourist that the "hospitality sector" (for whom I've no love incidently as I think they offer a product that's as often as shoddy as it is pricey) keep telling us is the way tourism here has to go.

I can't remember where he said he was from but it wasn't one of the Aer Lingus serviced US hubs. He flys from the US to Heathrow and transfers through to Shannon and from there makes his way to the golfclubs of Lahinch, Adare, Killarney, Waterville etc...

You make it more difficult for the likes of him to spend his money in this region and he won't come. "Sure he can fly into Dublin" I hear a throng say. The research is there -Americans who fly into Dublin by and large don't go far beyond it. Is that we want? More Dublin-centric concentration of visitors.

Anyway ...just an annecdote.

Also, Belfast International's catchment area takes in all of Donegal and some of Sligo, Leitrim, Cavan, Monaghan and Louth as well, which further complicates the Goverments position as they can't be seen to favour one area over another.

I'll give you Donegal but you are seriously reaching with the rest for anything other than cheaper package holidays to the Costas. At the northernmost tip of Monaghan you're about equidistant between Dublin and Belfast Airports. In anywhere in Louth but half a mile offshore of the Cooley Peninsula you're a 40-45 minute drive from Dublin Airport. It's a trip I make from Co. Monaghan fairly frequently.
Sligo and Leitrim are as much In Shannons catchment as they'd ever be in Belfasts.

[gael353]

3 flights a day to Shannon are not in the national interest. Thats the long and the short of it.

Your one short my friend its four (4) flights to shannon and just on a little side runner lads. 3 years ago i flew dublin madrid with aer lingus, it flew into one of the good terminals 1 or 2 not sure. Last year i was over again this time i might have well landed in north africa such was the distance of the terminal (4) from the other infastructure links. To my surprise the aircraft alongside of me was a ryanair flying to shannon The point being aer lingus have been selling off their valuable slots at international airports for some time now doing the cheap ryan air thing. If a replacment carrier on the very profitable Shannon Heathrow route can be found i say **** aerlingus. They shall pull out the atlantic routes as well in march but i will miss the rather athletic attractive air hostess living down the road from me

[OneRedArmy]

So says you ORA. It's a profitable, well subscribed route is it not?

Whats that got to do with the national interest?

Another extremely critical report in todays Indo saying that the only reason that this story got oxygen is because we're in the middle of silly season when there's nothing else to write about.

As for your American tourist example, he can fly to one of the US destinations served out of Shannon and go that way, and save 4 or 5 hours. Anyone who travels long-haul regularly avoids Heathrow like the plague when they can.

[pete]

I can't remember where he said he was from but it wasn't one of the Aer Lingus serviced US hubs. He flys from the US to Heathrow and transfers through to Shannon and from there makes his way to the golfclubs of Lahinch, Adare, Killarney, Waterville etc...

Easy. He can fly to Cork. For every problem there is a solution.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Whats that got to do with the national interest?
.

I believe I said strategic infrastructral interest, regional and national. They're asset stripping infrastructure from the midwest. I note you don't contest that it's a well subscribed profitable route ...not that I think that should be the be all and end all either.

Another extremely critical report in todays Indo saying that the only reason that this story got oxygen is because we're in the middle of silly season when there's nothing else to write about.

...that's very naive of you if you genuinely believe that ...and why the hell should I give a flying one what anyone in the Indo is saying anyway?

The only "silly season" relevance in all of this is Aer Lingus timing of the announcement as they wanted as many of the dail and cabinet away on holidays as possible to minimise the risk of a concerted political reaction. If it had gone just a little more smoothly for them I strongly suspect Corks Heathrow slots would be gone by now too.

As for your American tourist example, he can fly to one of the US destinations served out of Shannon and go that way, and save 4 or 5 hours. Anyone who travels long-haul regularly avoids Heathrow like the plague when they can.

...He probably can ...he just most likely won't.

[Macy]

The only "silly season" relevance in all of this is Aer Lingus timing of the announcement as they wanted as many of the dail and cabinet away on holidays as possible to minimise the risk of a concerted political reaction. If it had gone just a little more smoothly for them I strongly suspect Corks Heathrow slots would be gone by now too.

Concerted political reaction? Are FF capable of that? O'Dea changes his mind on the importance of it during an interview - he certainly doesn't see it as a big enough issue to give up his merc if the Government don't save the route...

[monutdfc]

Concerted political reaction? Are FF capable of that? O'Dea changes his mind on the importance of it during an interview - he certainly doesn't see it as a big enough issue to give up his merc if the Government don't save the route...

I think it is hilarious watching O'Dea squirm! Can;t wait for Cullen to be wheeled out, since it was him who went on about the strategic value of the government stake.

Ryanair have really thrown the cat among the pigeons now with their increased stake; correct me if I am wrong, but in round figures the shareholdings are:
Ryanair 30% (29.4% to be exact)
Govt 25%
Employees 20%
Pilots 2.5%
Denis O'Brien 2.5% (?)
Other investors 20%

Corporate governance has its rules here, and minority shareholders have rights, but the government can easily overturn the decision with the shareholding split as it is given Ryanair's public pronouncements.

(Pure speculation here, but my guess is that this was a sweetheart deal promised by Bertie at some point in the northern talks)

[OneRedArmy]

(Pure speculation here, but my guess is that this was a sweetheart deal promised by Bertie at some point in the northern talks)

I severely doubt this.

About 3 months ago it was announced Belfast and Birmingham had been shortlisted as they two possible locations for a new AL hub outside RoI.

I've no doubt Belfast International (a privately owned airport by a foreign listed firm) put together a great package and the NI Executive may have given some kind of support but to say that its Bertie's decision is preposterous.

Its in the interests of Shannon-backers to spread this but the idea that a publicly listed firm make a major policy decision based on the will of the Taoiseach is beyond belief.

What you are saying is that the key stakeholders in AL, all who are shareholders and are rewarded for profit maximisation threw this out the window at the behest of a little gift to the North as thanks for peace?


Why can't people get it into their heads that Aer Lingus are moving to Belfast because they can make more profits?!

You don't have to agree with it, but I can't see why people are stupid enough to believe the crap the Shannon lobby are continuing to spew out...

[OneRedArmy]

I believe I said strategic infrastructral interest, regional and national. They're asset stripping infrastructure from the midwest. I note you don't contest that it's a well subscribed profitable route ...not that I think that should be the be all and end all either.

In a publicly listed company profit maximisation generally is the be all and end all!

We're back to the uselessness of the Government's minority holding.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Concerted political reaction? Are FF capable of that? O'Dea changes his mind on the importance of it during an interview - he certainly doesn't see it as a big enough issue to give up his merc if the Government don't save the route...

Completely agree with you in relation to FFs reaction and the lack of backbone in any of their ranks. But if this had been announced while the dáil was sitting it'd have seen the government hauled over the coals.
Aer Lingus timed the announcment to minimise reaction to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monutdfc
(Pure speculation here, but my guess is that this was a sweetheart deal promised by Bertie at some point in the northern talks)

I severely doubt this.

Agree with you again. This has sweet feck all to do with the Peace Process, restoring devolution or any other similar.

Why can't people get it into their heads that Aer Lingus are moving to Belfast because they can make more profits?!

Three in a row we agree on. Where I reckon we differ is on the whether or not they should be allowed just up stumps and go ...or particularly whether they should be allowed take the Heathrow slots with them. The prevention of such moves was Martin Cullens stated reason for the government retaining the 25%.

[John83]

...the government can easily overturn the decision with the shareholding split as it is given Ryanair's public pronouncements...

The Tribune said that you'd need 75% of the shareholders to overturn the board's decision. (Sounds like a strange figure to me - I'm only repeating what I read).

[monutdfc]

I think it is hilarious watching O'Dea squirm!

He'll be incandescent after reading Fintan O'Toole in today's Irish Times:
According to O'Toole (and he puts forward a reasoned argument), O'Dea's stated position is unconstitutional!

[OneRedArmy]

Agree that watching O'Dea squirm is the main positive out of all of this.

How the man can take his current position is beyond me..... The duplicity of many of this FF govt is absolutely staggering. No surprise really, but they continue to plumb new depths.

All this talk of Govt "buying" Heathrow slots is ridiculous. If thats the desired aim, much quicker and more efficient to renationalise Aer Lingus (not that I'd particularly agree with that).

[Macy]

You forgot Willie O'Dea wasn't actually in the cabinet that made the decision to Privatise Aer Lingus and he most definitely wasn't one of them wheeled out to defend, and Tony Killen wasn't part of that Government either. It was all the fault of the last Rainbow...

[OneRedArmy]

You forgot Willie O'Dea wasn't actually in the cabinet that made the decision to Privatise Aer Lingus and he most definitely wasn't one of them wheeled out to defend, and Tony Killen wasn't part of that Government either. It was all the fault of the last Rainbow...

Formal decision was taken in 2005 iirc and O'Dea's been in Cabinet since 2004.

It may have been a broad policy objective going back before the last Govt but I'm fairly sure it went to Cabinet in 2005.

[Macy]

Formal decision was taken in 2005 iirc and O'Dea's been in Cabinet since 2004.

It may have been a broad policy objective going back before the last Govt but I'm fairly sure it went to Cabinet in 2005.

But you'd swear otherwise by the reaction of the two of them in particular. Whatever about no mark back benchers and councillors, those two were at the heart of Government when the decision to privatise was made, and remain at the heart of Government now when the Government could use it's stake to save all known life forms on the Western Seaboard.