Shannon Airport Discussion

**OneRedArmy** · 15/08/2007, 2:01 PM

Macy if it does boil down to pensions then frankly I've less sympathy. Any firm that is forced to keep a defined benefit scheme open may as well shut down now.

Defined benefit schemes are a thing of the past and anyone with any experience of pensions will tell you the same.

**Macy** · 15/08/2007, 2:46 PM

If it was only over the pension scheme, then why couldn't Aer Lingus simply say that they pay rates are the same? Couldn't be because they're not?

It is off topic, but it's funny how defined benefit schemes don't make sense economically for the ordinary worker, but all the managers and directors still get them. Defined benefit schemes have only got into trouble in the past because of companies raiding them or failing to increase contributions in line with liability (with the help of Governments failing to put in necessary protections). Companies want to ditch them so they can reduce their contributions to schemes - just another tool to make money rather than there being anything intrinsically wrong with them. Amazing how it works - companies mismanage the pension scheme, get many of them in trouble with insufficient funds, then plead the case that they're not economical and everyone simply buys that as a fact.

**OneRedArmy** · 15/08/2007, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Macy

It is off topic, but it's funny how defined benefit schemes don't make sense economically for the ordinary worker, but all the managers and directors still get them. Defined benefit schemes have only got into trouble in the past because of companies raiding them or failing to increase contributions in line with liability (with the help of Governments failing to put in necessary protections). Companies want to ditch them so they can reduce their contributions to schemes - just another tool to make money rather than there being anything intrinsically wrong with them. Amazing how it works - companies mismanage the pension scheme, get many of them in trouble with insufficient funds, then plead the case that they're not economical and everyone simply buys that as a fact.

Macy, not a particularly balanced view!!

Managers and Directors tend not to get defined benefit schemes nowadays as well. In any case pension funds are now capped for the very senior execs so it makes less sense to have them for the top bods.

The reason they have fallen out of favour is partly for the reasons you mentioned (payment holidays in periods of high return, for which the actuarial profession needs to hang its head for not speaking out against) but more realistically because a company bears the full risk in a defined benefit scheme and this is untenable in a capitalist economy.

When pensions were first in vogue workers lived, on average, less than 5 years after retirement, if they made it to retirement age. Now that figure is 15 years and growing fast. So a pension has to be funded for three times as long, adding in the performance risk of the investment.

By all means question capitalism, but going forward investors will not buy shares in companies with defined benefit schemes, as the company is bearing too much risk. Some of the pension deficits of older established companies are absolutely huge and will grow going forward.

These companies could probably afford to keep defined benefit schemes, just about, but their profits would all but disappear. And capitalism doesn't like disappearing profits!

Obviously Aer Lingus moving from a semi-state to a listed company makes the pension issue absolutely critical.

**pete** · 15/08/2007, 5:18 PM

Defined Benefit Schemes are like it or not a thing of the past. Employers & the State won't fund so would effectively mean current workers paying for retirees.

One of the few benefits of defined contributions is you buy into a fund so employers have no access to this so cannot raid.

The Aer Lingus unions were very quiet about the move to Belfast until the moaning picked up in Limerick & Clare. I sense a divide between pilots & orinary staffers.

I have zero sympathy for AL staff as they have already received shares in the private company. Why they were entitled to any shares in a company the tax payer (the rest of us owned).

Slightly off topic but Shannon Airport catering staff recent received E100k each to move jobs to a private company. Even the staff that stayed working for the airport received E16k just to do job they already doing. I wonder why the airport is strapped for cash...

**Lionel Ritchie** · 16/08/2007, 7:28 AM

Just listening on Morning Ireland, to some FFers from Co. Clare who had a meeting in Ennis last night. They're "outraged". That's it ...that's all. Oh... and they want "action" (don't we all

)

Couldn't even bring themselves to forward so much as an empty threat to resign their seats, break away as some quasi-Independent rump... Nothing. More hot air than when Richard Branson goes flying.

But the mid west region is well served by their FF reps because they're "outraged".

**Macy** · 16/08/2007, 7:41 AM

Originally Posted by Lionel Ritchie

But the mid west region is well served by their FF reps because they're "outraged".

But Willie O'Dea will probably still get multiple quota's...

**Dotsy** · 16/08/2007, 8:38 AM

Reported again on the front page of the IT today that Aer Lingus have said the pay at the starting grade in Belfast will be better than in Dublin. The difference at the start will be the pension issue and Belfast pilots will have new and more flexible working practises.

I don't see why there is an issue here. Companies pay local workers a wage depending on the wage norms in that country. Pilots in Belfast are only going to apply if the wages on offer (right up the pay scale) are competive based on what the average wage is in NI. No company is going to pay workers a wage by reference to what they pay in another economy. Local conditions are always a defining factor in setting wage levels.

As other people have said defined benefit pension schemes are a thing of the past. I am in senior management in the company I work for and no one gets a defined benefit scheme here (unfortunately).

**Macy** · 16/08/2007, 8:55 AM

Originally Posted by Dotsy

Reported again on the front page of the IT today that Aer Lingus have said the pay at the starting grade in Belfast will be better than in Dublin. The difference at the start will be the pension issue and Belfast pilots will have new and more flexible working practises..

The clues are "starting" and "start".

**Dotsy** · 16/08/2007, 9:21 AM

Originally Posted by Macy

The clues are "starting" and "start".

Fair enough. But I still don't see why a company should be forced to pay the same wages and offer the same benefits to workers in two different economies. Surely they should be set with reference to local conditions and wage rates.

Does anyone know if for example AIB or Bank of Ireland pays staff north and south the exact same wages and offer the exact same benefits. Somehow I doubt it and if this is the case why aren't the banking unions in the Republic kicking off about it.

**Dodge** · 16/08/2007, 9:25 AM

Originally Posted by Dotsy

Does anyone know if for example AIB or Bank of Ireland pays staff north and south the exact same wages and offer the exact same benefits. Somehow I doubt it and if this is the case why aren't the banking unions in the Republic kicking off about it.

You can be guarenteed that if they shut down a branch and moved it north of the border, making everybody resign and then re-apply for their same job for less money/conditions, the unions would do something about it

**OneRedArmy** · 16/08/2007, 10:52 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

You can be guarenteed that if they shut down a branch and moved it north of the border, making everybody resign and then re-apply for their same job for less money/conditions, the unions would do something about it

Oh come on. Off the top of my head (to the extent that I spent some time on an ongoing basis on both sides of the border) I reckon I'd have a similar living standard on 75% of my Dublin salary north of the border.

Why should Aer Lingus be forced to pay well paid pilots even more in real terms? They are not being forced to move, they jobs are being advertised and its their choice.

Aer Lingus staff are well known as being amongst the most militant in the country and its about time someone took them on.

**John83** · 16/08/2007, 10:56 AM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Aer Lingus staff are well known as being amongst the most militant in the country and its about time someone took them on.

Someone? How about the Rod? We've already seen he's good in a scrap.

**Macy** · 16/08/2007, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Aer Lingus staff are well known as being amongst the most militant in the country and its about time someone took them on.

Damn those pesky unions wanting to protect their members jobs and terms and conditions. Couldn't possibly allow the workers to still be protected, especially one that has shown itself to be so trustworthy over recent months.

**pete** · 16/08/2007, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Aer Lingus staff are well known as being amongst the most militant in the country and its about time someone took them on.

The main reason for making them private i.e. not semi-state company anymore. Its a lot harder to strike when you a private company that has no government to bail you out when losing money.

**Dodge** · 16/08/2007, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by pete

The main reason for making them private i.e. not semi-state company anymore. Its a lot harder to strike when you a private company that has no government to bail you out when losing money.

That makes no sense at all.

**pete** · 16/08/2007, 11:21 AM

When public employees strike they put pressure on the government to assist them & this is usually by means of financial package. When a private employees strike it is not the governments responsibility.

**OneRedArmy** · 16/08/2007, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Macy

Damn those pesky unions wanting to protect their members jobs and terms and conditions. Couldn't possibly allow the workers to still be protected, especially one that has shown itself to be so trustworthy over recent months.

They have a track record going back decades.

By comparison with other industries/occupations, AL employeees are very well paid by any measure.

**Dodge** · 16/08/2007, 11:24 AM

In both cases workers strike for better conditions/wages from their employer. The government aren't bailing out anyone, they're dealing with their employees

If anything the pressures of profit would make the private sector under more pressure to sort it quickly as they can't go too long without income

**Macy** · 16/08/2007, 11:33 AM

You do realise that most industrial actions are brought about by Companies (including and especially state companies) breaching existing agreements? People don't vote for industrial action and to lose pay just for fun!