12 team league from next season

[Saint MacDara]

3000 & 2000 apparently. Portadown like Cliftonville would be lucky to average 1000 these days

I dont know anything about Portadown other than what ive seen with my own eyes.When Pat's played them in the Setanta Cup there were less than 50 home fans there because they knew they were in for a pasting.

Not very loyal,do their supporters act like that when playing Linfield or Glentoran?

[dcfcsteve]

Take out the bigger teams (let's say the top 3 crowd pullers) from the 1st Division every year and you're left with an average attendance ranging from around 250 to around 350.

The Welsh Premier averages around 250-300 in each season. I would not say that is spouting nonsense.

Your maths is seriously suspect Cymro. If you take the Shels and Dundalk* figures out from the First Division EL attendances thread on foot.ie (remember - figures there are a mixture of official published ones and experienced judgements from fans who know the stadiums, and are deemed good enough to be used by both the FAI and Genesis sports consultancy) then you're left with an average of 552. So even by stripping out the 2 best supported clubs in the EL FIRST division, the crowds there are still roughly double what you get in the entire Welsh PREMIER division. I think that kills any comparison between Welsh and Irish crowds stone cold dead.....

* I chose Shels and Dundalk, as they have clearly the best crowds. Next best is Wexford who, as only in their first season, I've left in - as their ongoing crowd size has not been proven. I'd happily strip out a few more clubs if it would make you feel better and grind the average down to closer to the Welsh level. Though I fail to see what that would prove...

[dcfcsteve]

Thats fair enough, I don't doubt that the EL has better crowds overall, nor that the standard of football is higher.

But the biggest derby in the north does appear to pull a bigger crowd.

No-ones disputing that. But that just makes the Irish League look even worse/unbalanced !

The Old Firm derby in Scotland getting 60,000+ at Parkhead doesn't shine a posiitve light on an average crowd of c. 4-5,000 at Inverness, Motherwell, Gretna and St Mirren, for example. Teams play in leagues.

[Steve Bruce]

No-ones disputing that. But that just makes the Irish League look even worse/unbalanced !

The Old Firm derby in Scotland getting 60,000+ at Parkhead doesn't shine a posiitve light on an average crowd of c. 4-5,000 at Inverness, Motherwell, Gretna and St Mirren, for example. Teams play in leagues.

I fail to see how it makes it worse tbh.

It can only be a good thing to have a couple of teams who can command a big support, rather than having a league full of teams who draw no support.

Incidently SPL gets a terrible lashing by people over here(me included) but their lowest team gets a bigger average gate than our top teams. This shows you how much football on this island still has to go before it can be taken seriously across Europe.

[dcfcsteve]

I fail to see how it makes it worse tbh.

It can only be a good thing to have a couple of teams who can command a big support, rather than having a league full of teams who draw no support.

Incidently SPL gets a terrible lashing by people over here(me included) but their lowest team gets a bigger average gate than our top teams. This shows you how much football on this island still has to go before it can be taken seriously across Europe.

You would expect SPL teams to have a higher average crowd than Irish teams, given the disparity in strength of the domestic game in both countries, and the overall quality. I don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone.

And whilst it would obviously be preferable having a league with one or two teams of big support and everyone else on very low support, rather than a league where all had that low level of support - the size of crowds for the Linfield-Glens derby is being forwarded to suggest that EL crowds are not all that great. Yes - we don't get crowds of 12,000 for individual games - but across the league we are certainly in a much healthier position than the IL, and the odd gate-busting Big Two derby doesn't change that fact. For the overall health of any league, I would assert that it is better to have a broadly similar level of support amongst clubs in a league - so long as we aren't talking about pitifully low support (e.g. Welsh Premier standard) - than have one or two well supported clubs and the rest playing in empty stadiums. Otherwise you end up in the uncompetitive situation you have in Scotland and, it would seem, the Irish League.

[dcfcsteve]

I attended the Derry v Drogs game at the Brandy in June (as a guest) and would be astounded if there were 3,500 at it. I don't believe the attendance for that game was published on the attendances thread.

You're right - it's one of the ones listed as missing on the attendances thread.

Where are you getting the 3,500 figure from btw ? Our average this season is c. 2,900.

Our 2 biggest crowds historically have been against Shels and Harps - both of whom sadly languish in a division lower than us now. If the Glens got relegated, it'd be interesting to see what sort of average crowd Linfield got over a season.

[Steve Bruce]

It wasn't, and the attendances thread states that.

Where are you getting the 3,500 figure from btw ? Our average this season is c. 2,900.

Our 2 biggest crowds historically have been against Shels and Harps - both of whom sadly languish in a division lower than us now. If the Glens got relegated, it'd be interesting to see what sort of average crowd Linfield got over a season.

Incidently, the Derry home support haven't been updated in the thread for a while. Is this to do with the drop in attendances?

This is a side question, nothing to do with the debate, just curious.

[Steve Bruce]

You would expect SPL teams to have a higher average crowd than Irish teams, given the disparity in strength of the domestic game in both countries, and the overall quality. I don't think that comes as a surprise to anyone.

And whilst it would obviously be preferable having a league with one or two teams of big support and everyone else on very low support, rather than a league where all had that low level of support - the size of crowds for the Linfield-Glens derby is being forwarded to suggest that EL crowds are not all that great. Yes - we don't get crowds of 12,000 for individual games - but across the league we are certainly in a much healthier position than the IL, and the odd gate-busting Big Two derby doesn't change that fact. For the overall health of any league, I would assert that it is better to have a broadly similar level of support amongst clubs in a league - so long as we aren't talking about pitifully low support (e.g. Welsh Premier standard) - than have one or two well supported clubs and the rest playing in empty stadiums. Otherwise you end up in the uncompetitive situation you have in Scotland and, it would seem, the Irish League.

I get you now, wasn't too clear before. I would agree with that.

But Linfield vs Glentoran is probably the most prestigious derby on this Island which the crowds reflect and I also think Linfield is the most prestigious fixture any team can have(outside their derby of course) going by the attendances in the Setanta cup, all the largest attendances seem to be when Linfield visit.

[dcfcsteve]

Incidently, the Derry home support haven't been updated in the thread for a while. Is this to do with the drop in attendances?

This is a side question, nothing to do with the debate, just curious.

Cynical.......

Firstly - how have the Derry attendances not been updated in that thread "for a while" ? The only 2 listed as missing are vs Waterford (May) and Drogheda (June). We've had 4 home League games since then - which, given they aren't listed as missing, must therefore be included in the average. So where the hell are you getting this idea that they haven't been updated recently ? Sounds like you just wanted to make a petty post about the small decline in City's attendances, and shoe-horned a question around it to suit.....

Secondly - the stats for the Drogs and Waterford games are largely missing because I was the only one back them who used to post the City figures, and I haven't been on foot.ie anywhere near as much since then as I used to be. It didn't help that it's convoluted for me to get the figures from other City fans first etc. Other City fans have since appeared to step into the breach, thankfully.

Finally - there is no shame in a club that is performing dramatically worse than in recent years facing a small decline in attendances. That's football. What is interesting is that - despite falling off a cliff on the pitch, our attendances have declined by less than 10% on the terraces, and we are the 2nd best supported team in the league. I doubt even the mighty Linfield would escape a decline in attendances if you's found yourselves hanging out mid-table for a season.

Nice try on the question though. Maybe make it a bit less obvious next time, eh......?

[dcfcsteve]

But Linfield vs Glentoran is probably the most prestigious derby on this Island which the crowds reflect and I also think Linfield is the most prestigious fixture any team can have(outside their derby of course) going by the attendances in the Setanta cup, all the largest attendances seem to be when Linfield visit.

Linfield is certainly the most prestigious draw. However - for some teams, that would be down to the novelty factor.

Rovers would probably see Linfield as their most prestigious fixture if they played you regularly, for example. But that's because they like to think of themselves as unreconstructed republicans.... Bohs, however, would still probably see their games with Rovers as more prestigious than games with you. Likewise - Drogheda would probably rate regular games against a premier Dundalk side as more prestigious than regular games against Linfield - as the novelty factor would decline, whereas local derby importance doesn't.

City would probably have Linfield as its most prestigious game, due to historical and Derry-Belfast reasons. But Harps would probably rather play us regularly than yourselves, to be honest. Likewise for teams like Sligo, Galway etc - Linfield are really only a big draw at the moment because you're a novelty. If the tedium of playing you every season kicked-in, you'd soon see a lot of other clubs eclipsing you in terms of importance in fixtures.

So don't get carried away too much Steve - the world doesn't always revolve around Linfield. The Linfield games are important as a novelty, but like all novelties, the appeal usually declines...

[whitewell red]

can't see why the ifa cant make the new league 14 teams. I can understand if the top teams want to play as less league games as possible because they have other competitions to play but all they have to do is when the league splits the top six play each other and the bottom eight play each other. don't want to lose teams like the curs and DC. as a Cliftonville fan, who will be our derby match? Distillery?

ps. this is a joke, why do this?

[Steve Bruce]

Cynical.......

Firstly - how have the Derry attendances not been updated in that thread "for a while" ? The only 2 listed as missing are vs Waterford (May) and Drogheda (June). We've had 4 home League games since then - which, given they aren't listed as missing, must therefore be included in the average. So where the hell are you getting this idea that they haven't been updated recently ? Sounds like you just wanted to make a petty post about the small decline in City's attendances, and shoe-horned a question around it to suit.....

Secondly - the stats for the Drogs and Waterford games are largely missing because I was the only one back them who used to post the City figures, and I haven't been on foot.ie anywhere near as much since then as I used to be. It didn't help that it's convoluted for me to get the figures from other City fans first etc. Other City fans have since appeared to step into the breach, thankfully.

Finally - there is no shame in a club that is performing dramatically worse than in recent years facing a small decline in attendances. That's football. What is interesting is that - despite falling off a cliff on the pitch, our attendances have declined by less than 10% on the terraces, and we are the 2nd best supported team in the league. I doubt even the mighty Linfield would escape a decline in attendances if you's found yourselves hanging out mid-table for a season.

Nice try on the question though. Maybe make it a bit less obvious next time, eh......?

I'm the Cynical one?

I really don't pay that close attention to Derry City hence the question. I Also if your support remains around the 2800+ mark, then that is very good. Maybe you should sometimes take a question as a question instead of thinking sinister things behind it.

I support the Irish League ffs, look at our crowds, I'm hardly going to attack a LOI side for attendances am i?

[Steve Bruce]

Linfield is certainly the most prestigious draw. However - for some teams, that would be down to the novelty factor.

Rovers would probably see Linfield as their most prestigious fixture if they played you regularly, for example. But that's because they like to think of themselves as unreconstructed republicans.... Bohs, however, would still probably see their games with Rovers as more prestigious than games with you. Likewise - Drogheda would probably rate regular games against a premier Dundalk side as more prestigious than regular games against Linfield - as the novelty factor would decline, whereas local derby importance doesn't.

City would probably have Linfield as its most prestigious game, due to historical and Derry-Belfast reasons. But Harps would probably rather play us regularly than yourselves, to be honest. Likewise for teams like Sligo, Galway etc - Linfield are really only a big draw at the moment because you're a novelty. If the tedium of playing you every season kicked-in, you'd soon see a lot of other clubs eclipsing you in terms of importance in fixtures.

So don't get carried away too much Steve - the world doesn't always revolve around Linfield. The Linfield games are important as a novelty, but like all novelties, the appeal usually declines...

Around the Irish League, Linfield still regulary get the opposition punters out in numbers. So after 120 years the novelty still hasn't worn off a lot of these teams supporters

I also said, Derbys aside.

[AnnaghRed]

I dont know anything about Portadown other than what ive seen with my own eyes.When Pat's played them in the Setanta Cup there were less than 50 home fans there because they knew they were in for a pasting.

50?? Jesus, I hadn't realised it was that bad

It doesn't say much for the draw of the Setanta, or St Pats, if the hard-core didn't even turn up.

Even unfashionable Sheff Utd pulled in a crowd of 700ish the other week.

Not very loyal,do their supporters act like that when playing Linfield or Glentoran.

Linfield, Glentoran, Glenavon & Cliftonville normally pull in decent enough crowds, and I cant remember the last time we beat Linfield at Shamrock, must be at least 5 seasons!

[SolitudeRed]

can't see why the ifa cant make the new league 14 teams. I can understand if the top teams want to play as less league games as possible because they have other competitions to play but all they have to do is when the league splits the top six play each other and the bottom eight play each other. don't want to lose teams like the curs and DC. as a Cliftonville fan, who will be our derby match? Distillery?

ps. this is a joke, why do this?

14 teams would be a good compromise but I can't see the IFA changing their minds on this one!

you never know the crues might make it into this new league if they do well this season and improve their ground, although I don't hold out much hope for DC! Although what I can't understand is how Loughgall made it through and teams like crusaders have not!

Aye a Derby match with Distillery isn't the most enthraling prospect! I remember on boxing day 2005 when we played them think we won 3-1 but there were hardly any distillery fans at the match!

[garyderry]

Summer football has certainly helped the Republics UEFA co-efficient, but lets be honest, that is only ever going to climb so high, then stop.

Can't say i've been bowled over by the attendance figures published on here either, one figure 4206 for Shamrock Rovers v Bohemians particularly stood out. The only time last season a Blues v Glens game had a crowd that low was in the Setanta Cup.

Strange as it may seem, fans in dublin dont tend to travel to "away" games in dublin as much as you would think, even when the "away" ground is actually the normal home ground in some cases.

And as has been stated the overall attendances across the the league are not that far from top to bottom, with maybe the exception of cork who when doing well can get 6-7000 no matter who they play, and ucd who will only get a few hundred no matter who they play, everyone else in the premier will get 1,500-4,000 with very little of that being away support.

[dcfcsteve]

I'm the Cynical one?

I really don't pay that close attention to Derry City hence the question. I Also if your support remains around the 2800+ mark, then that is very good. Maybe you should sometimes take a question as a question instead of thinking sinister things behind it.

I support the Irish League ffs, look at our crowds, I'm hardly going to attack a LOI side for attendances am i?

You made an assertion that was clearly wrong. Either you were too lazy to check the facts first, or you were deliberately making a negative assumption or, as I suspect, you were guilty of a bit of both.

Maybe if you asked questions that weren't based on nonesense then I mightened have to be so cynical of your intentions.....

[Steve Bruce]

You made an assertion that was clearly wrong. Either you were too lazy to check the facts first, or you were deliberately making a negative assumption or, as I suspect, you were guilty of a bit of both.

Maybe if you asked questions that weren't based on nonesense then I mightened have to be so cynical of your intentions.....

Your probably right, but then why should I check anything when I can just make an assumption and either be told I'm correct or I'm wrong.

It's alot easier for me that way

[Cymro]

Your maths is seriously suspect Cymro. If you take the Shels and Dundalk* figures out from the First Division EL attendances thread on foot.ie (remember - figures there are a mixture of official published ones and experienced judgements from fans who know the stadiums, and are deemed good enough to be used by both the FAI and Genesis sports consultancy) then you're left with an average of 552. So even by stripping out the 2 best supported clubs in the EL FIRST division, the crowds there are still roughly double what you get in the entire Welsh PREMIER division. I think that kills any comparison between Welsh and Irish crowds stone cold dead.....

* I chose Shels and Dundalk, as they have clearly the best crowds. Next best is Wexford who, as only in their first season, I've left in - as their ongoing crowd size has not been proven. I'd happily strip out a few more clubs if it would make you feel better and grind the average down to closer to the Welsh level. Though I fail to see what that would prove...

Been away on holidays for the last week or so hence the late reply.

The major flaw with your counter argument here is that you aren't actually listening to what I've said and are assuming I'm claiming things that I'm not.

Let's dress this post down fully shall we?

Here

Take out the bigger teams (let's say the top 3 crowd pullers) from the 1st Division every year and you're left with an average attendance ranging from around 250 to around 350.

The Welsh Premier averages around 250-300 in each season. I would not say that is spouting nonsense.

Now for God's sake relax and don't take it so seriously.

Right, let's have a look at what I was actually claiming here.

From that link I provided in my last post, you can check these if you don't take my word for it.

1st Division 2006

Club Average attendance
Galway United 1,148
Shamrock Rovers 1,089
Dundalk FC 1,078
Finn Harps 428
Athlone 421
Cobh Ramblers 368
Limerick 364
Kildare County 265
Monaghan Utd 204
Kilkenny City 122

Average 570, but when you take away the top 3, 310.

1st Division 2005

Club Average attendance
Sligo Rovers 1,819
Limerick 669
Galway United 566
Dundalk 474
Cobh Ramblers 403
Athlone 316
Kildare County 186
Kilkenny City 185
Monaghan United 183
Dublin City 175

Average 523, but when you take away the top 3, 274.

1st Division 2004

Club Average attendance
Finn Harps 1,106
Bray Wanderers 818
Sligo Rovers 781
Dundalk 591
Galway United 571
UCD 306
Kildare 298
Athlone 291
Cobh Ramblers 240
Limerick 188
Monaghan United 182
Kilkenny City 108

Average 515, but when you take away the top 3, 352.

Right, now, the reason I've taken away the top 3 in each of these cases is because in general there are 3 clubs with significantly higher attendances than the others. 2005 being something of an exception, but then even still if you only took out Sligo (who had far higher attendances than the rest) the average would still likely only be around 320 or so.

Additionally, let's not discount the impact that the large away followings of clubs like Sligo have on other clubs' attendances. My aim here is to try and establish the real level of support/interest for both levels of football.

Your counter-argument was focussed on a lot of stuff I wasn't even claiming and using figures from a season (this one) that is both not complete and therefore inaccurate, and also completely atypical in that the invitational thingy you've got in your Premier Division has shuffled a lot of teams around, some of whom, like Shelbourne, have enjoyed plenty of success in recent times so will therefore naturally have higher than average gates for their level of football. Also, there are some newly-formed clubs like Wexford whose gates will likely become more 'par for the course' over the next few years as the novelty factor wears off.

I personally think that general stats over the course of several years are a better way of measuring actual levels of support for a certain standard of football, and indeed that is why I wasn't claiming any of the things you implied I was, most likely because you are so arrogant that you can't even accept that the tiny little Welsh Premier could even come near the might of the Eircom 1st Division.

When you reply to this, reply to it on its own merits and not on stuff that I'm not claiming to be true as you did with the last one.

[DmanDmythDledge]

Cymro not sure exactly what you're trying to prove but you can't take away the highest averages in the First Division and compare them to the Welsh League. The comparison is pointless- it's like taking away Rovers, Dundalk and Galway and claiming that Cobh won the league.

Also the crowds in the First Division are up this year.

Dundalk 1,592
Wexford 1,063
Shels 993
Limerick 767
Athlone 727
Harps 641
Cobh 538
Monaghan 283
Kildare 249
Kilkenny 153

That leaves a total average of 716, up 25% from last season, mainly due to an increase all around the league.