Do you want Derry, Drogs and Pats to progress?

[GavinZac]

well, the tiny, vocal minority havent been involved in europe enough to care about seeding. the league has been their pinnacle for years, so seeing league rivals lose might be entertaining.

[superfrank]

Rivalry makes for a better atmosphere at a match but it must be kept in check i.e. no violence ( SuperFrank did use the word hate previously -as if we should aspire to this??? ).

I did not use the word hate. Get your facts right before you go accusing me. I do not condone violence, maybe you should read over my posts again.

We need to convert the barstoolers to follow Irish, not English clubs and one of the key issues is respect. One of the best way to get this is for our clubs to perform well in Europe ( both for the results / prestige and for the much needed money ).

Surely you, a Shels fan, would be aware that this hasn't worked. Look at where Shels now, look at the fanbase Shels have. The European experience did put Shels in the limelight for a while but it hasn't benefited your club consistently.

[superfrank]

well, the tiny, vocal minority havent been involved in europe enough to care about seeding. the league has been their pinnacle for years, so seeing league rivals lose might be entertaining.

Did you click on the poll results? Because I voted for the choice that said "didn't care". I'm not some saddo who wants to see every club fail in Europe just for the sake of humiliating them. I honestly don't care how any of the teams do.

Bray could easily be back in Europe anytime soon and in all honesty I wouldn't care about coefficients. I apologise for not being a European junkie.

[GavinZac]

Surely you, a Shels fan, would be aware that this hasn't worked. Look at where Shels now, look at the fanbase Shels have. The European experience did put Shels in the limelight for a while but it hasn't benefited your club consistently.

shel's overspending was the cause of their demise. they WERE consistently performing in europe until the pipe dream ended. had they been doing so in a financially stable state, the consistent performance would have paid off eventually, either by a gradual earning of respect or that one break through one day when an irish club reaches the group stages of a competition

[GavinZac]

Did you click on the poll results? Because I voted for the choice that said "didn't care". I'm not some saddo who wants to see every club fail in Europe just for the sake of humiliating them. I honestly don't care how any of the teams do.

Bray could easily be back in Europe anytime soon and in all honesty I wouldn't care about coefficients. I apologise for not being a European junkie.

thats a whole lot of "I"'s for someone i wasnt referring to.

[superfrank]

shel's overspending was the cause of their demise. they WERE consistently performing in europe until the pipe dream ended. had they been doing so in a financially stable state, the consistent performance would have paid off eventually, either by a gradual earning of respect or that one break through one day when an irish club reaches the group stages of a competition

Ok apart from the finances and overspending, has it won them any new fans? What was there last attendance? That's where the evidence to their failure lies.

As a matter of fact, do Cork sell out their home games? I know they sold out the European ones. I thought thewhole idea is to get people into the league games but clearly that isn't happening.

EDIT - This just proves what I'm on about.

[Shelsman]

Shelsman, as a follower of th club with probably the best recent Eurpean record, and certainly the highest european profile recently, do you think your european exploits have a) helped Shels and b) helped the league's attendances grow?

(a) Yes. Although more to keep us going ( albeit in a false economic position as it turns out! ).

(b) Perhaps but only marginally. Maybe it helped the league maintain attendance levels more so than increase them? I have to say I'd be reluctant to shell out €15 for a game every week so I'd imagine there are other factors at play when it comes to attendances?

Generally speaking, when Irish clubs draw a decent side in Europe the match is sold out in advance so it boosts the finances and also gives the league good exposure -the more we get of these two the quicker the league and attendances will improve.

[Shelsman]

I did not use the word hate. Get your facts right before you go accusing me. I do not condone violence, maybe you should read over my posts again.

OK. I'm not going to read through all the posts now so I take your word for it and apologize for the accusation -Sorry. I got you confused with another fan.

Surely you, a Shels fan, would be aware that this hasn't worked. Look at where Shels now, look at the fanbase Shels have. The European experience did put Shels in the limelight for a while but it hasn't benefited your club consistently.

Ultimately they did well but did not make a break through in terms of getting into the group stages of either the CL or the UEFA Cup. However, they gave us a lot of pride and happiness in their exploits.

It will really take a breakthrough to the group stages ( possibly for a few consecutive years ) to get a leap in interest in the Eircom League. If Irish Millionaires put some money into the game here rather than in English clubs it would help too.

We have made great progress in Europe since the turn of the century so we are on the way ( hopefully ) to making a big breakthrough.

Ultimately, to stop the exodus fans and money ( I'd guess €30 Million a year ) from Irish fans supporting English clubs then an Irish club will need to defeat and English team. Only at that stage will barstoolers wonder: "Well why AM I supporting the English team?" and perhaps change allegiance. It might take 10-20 years but it will be worth the wait. In the meantime we can start ( continue! ) with the elimination of Scottish clubs and hopefully draw back Irish fans who have been supporting Scottish clubs to the Eircom League. All a bit idealistic you might say, but sure what's life without idealism?

[GavinZac]

All a bit idealistic you might say, but sure what's life without idealism?

The first division but i agree with your post.

[pineapple stu]

In what way? You can't make anyone's opinion "groundless", an opinion is someone's own decision. You can't prove it wrong just cos you don't agree with it.

I've not "proved wrong" superfrank' opinion at all. I've only noted to him that, based on the reasons he's quoted for having that opinion, the opinion is groundless. Big difference.

[superfrank]

I've not "proved wrong" superfrank' opinion at all. I've only noted to him that, based on the reasons he's quoted for having that opinion, the opinion is groundless. Big difference.

I don't feel my opinion is groundless. If it was groundless, I wouldn't have it as an opinion. We disagree.

[pineapple stu]

You haven't been reading my posts so.

[SkStu]

im with Frank on this one. Wanting your domestic rivals to succeed in Europe for your own sake is minnowism of the highest order. All clubs should aspire to achieving success for themselves.

That said i would be the first to say well done should they progress.

[pineapple stu]

You are indeed with Frank. Just like him, you're trotting out cliches about minnowism without bothering to explain the link between wanting local clubs to do well and exhibiting minnowism.

[SkStu]

All clubs should aspire to achieving success for themselves. Cheering on a rival (fierce or friendly) in the hope that it will benefit your club in the future is minnowism.

Can you explain how supporting your rivals in europe does any good? Apart from, in the event of them progressing, being able to tell your barstooling mates "i told you the leagues not that ****e". Then they can smile, ruffle your hair and go back to scratching their balls.

[pineapple stu]

Achieving success for your own club, and hoping a club succeeds in a competition you're not in are not mutually exclusive.

How does it do any harm supporting a local team? Realistically, it's not going to make any difference, so it's just a case of being a sour git for nothing really.

I've already explained one instance of how hoping eL clubs do well in Europe has affected me directly.

[SkStu]

I've already explained one instance of how hoping eL clubs do well in Europe has affected me directly.

this?

"And for what it's worth, when we beat Cork in the Cup as a First Division side theee years ago, I actually enjoyed it more because they'd been in the InterToto Cup Third Round the previous weekend."

clutching at straws there a little bit...

im not a sour git (well not all the time ) i just believe that you support your club and your club alone. I believe that cheering for whomever it may be in the hope that it might one day, in the distant or not so distant future, benefit your club is minnowism.

Its absolutely your prerogative to cheer for whoever you like but ill stick to cheering for Bohs and just Bohs. Sour git or not.

[pineapple stu]

clutching at straws there a little bit...

Another cliche. How ironic!

[SkStu]

whats really ironic is how clicheed it is to remark on people overusing cliches. BAM!

[superfrank]

You haven't been reading my posts so.

I have been reading your posts and what you've come up with hasn't made me change my mind. It hasn't made me doubt my opinion whatsoever.

I firmly believe that supporting other clubs "for the good of our league" is small-minded. It's not doing any good. How is cheering on your rivals to success good for your club?
Ok:
-They do better in Europe
-They make more money
-The coefficient goes up
-Their attendances go up

Unless your club qualifies for Europe, it doesn't benefit your club. Your club doesn't get the extra money. Your club doesn't get the extra fans. Your club won't have the European run to advertise for players. Ultimately the other club benefits and yours doesn't. Yes if you are to qualify for Europe, you'll get an "easier" draw but you'll still be behind the Derrys and the Corks.

If you want to see your nation do well, like I said, support the national team. If you want to see the el do well, go to the games. I honestly can't see how supporting your rival in a European game which has miniscule benefits to your club is worth it.

I watched the Derry match tonight. The Brandywell appeared to be full. Though I doubt it'll be full for their next league match. Shels, Cork and Derry have all made very good progress in Europe in recent years yet none of these clubs have seen a consistent large surge in public demand for replicas, merchandise, etc. Attendances are still bad and your average Joe on the street would care more for a rat-fight than to go see an el game.