I'll believe what came from the man's mouth than some nutter on an internet forum years later.
"Withdraw my allegation"? Are you for real?
Derek Dougan RIP
KOH
Dougan stated he was told it would cost him his career.Originally Posted by EalingGreen
He never played again.
Either Dougan's a liar, or it played a significant part in the ending of his career.
I know who I believe.
Hint: its not Harry Cavan.......
His career was already finished
The Hallion Battalion Molests football.:D
You originally posted the following:
"Never played for NI again after playing for Rovers! The IFA Bigots ended his international career."
It is not my "opinion" that his international career was already over by then, rather it is a fact, as I demonstrated by a simple appraisal of his international and club career.
As for your second point, I disagree with others on this Board from time to time, without resorting to such epithets. However, you made an allegation of fact (not opinion), which no-one with a knowledge of the true situation would have made. Therefore, unless you are posting from some malicious motive, I can only assume you are ignorant of the facts.
And since this involves a subject dear to my heart, I make no apologies for pointing this out, especially when you repeatedly ignore it (that word again) when someone else corrects you.
As for One Red Army, I shall reply to his interesting and informed post separately.
It is your fact. Assume all you want. He was told he wouldnt play again and didnt. But thank you for ignoring (is that the word?) what the man himself said. You're correcting nobody here.
KOH
To be honest, the tone of this post suggests that Dougan's career was cut short early due to IFA bigotry.
It is pretty clear (to me at least) that his career was over anyway, regardless of whether the game was organised or not.
So it correct to say that
or
but it suggests that this was the only reason he didnt play again.
NY Hoop and One Red Army, do you really think he would have gone on to play again?
Just because Doogan said something doesn't make it fact - as his quotation about the two years following the Brazil game being "amongst his best" demonstrates. Perhaps his recollection wasn't so good as it might have been nearly 30 years later, but the first season following was rather mediocre compared with his glory years and the second was nondescript (three League starts and one goal before retiring)
I have absolutely no desire to speak ill of the dead, but even Dougan's best friends would agree he was often a controversial character.
For example, on a TV chat show a little while back, he made some highly derogatory remarks about the NI support at recent internationals at Windsor (sectarianism etc). When pressed on the matter, he then had to admit that he hadn't actually attended a game in nearly 20 years.
Or, there was his return to Wolves as Chief Executive when the Bhatti Brothers bought the club. In the years which followed, they went millions into debt and plunged to the old Fourth Division. The Bhattis name is absolute dirt around Molineux and it has to be said that the Doog's association with them cast something of a strain upon his reputation amongst the hitherto adoring fans (long since forgiven, it should be added).
His other business and personal dealings, including court cases, were sometimes also rather unsavoury. Further, it was not always coincidental that some of these controversies arose when he had a book out, or was standing for office.
And in any case, he was certainly a contradictory character. For example, he was both a Trade Unionist (Chairman of the PFA) and a parliamentary political candidate of a small, rather "looney" right wing party (UKIP). He was always proud to play for NI, yet he passionately advocated a United Ireland team. He made friends readily, yet he also seemed to fall out with people just as readily.
But having said all that, he was an excellent player, he had many achievements both inside and outside the game and he was apparently always very courteous and personable. Moreover, his views always seemed principled and backed by a fierce intelligence. Above all, he didn't have a sectarian bone in his body.
In that respect, he was not unlike his near contemporary, George Best, and like George I will remember the Doog fondly for his many accomplishments - all else is irrelevant in the scheme of things.
RIP.
In pointing out that Dougan's international career was already over before he helped organise the Brazil game, I am not defending Harry Cavan, merely drawing attention to the facts of the case.
To put it bluntly, by the summer of 1973, the Doog's best years were behind him, he had already been dropped from the NI side after only scoring 4 times (against crap teams btw) in 33 caps, including none in his last 10 appearances. Further, his club career was almost at an end (he was in his mid-30's, after all) and NI were already giving a chance to much younger strikers who were playing for teams in the (old) First Division.
Therefore, whilst Cavan was no doubt deeply opposed to Dougan's actions, he wasn't such an idiot as to issue a wholly empty threat!
As for your comments on Cavan generally, there is a great deal in what you say. It is an open secret that FIFA, under Joao Havalange, was an enormously corrupt organisation. Therefore, it can be no surprise if at least some amongst his Vice-Presidents were equally so.
But even supposing for the sake of argument his Presidency of the IFA had been entirely free of corruption and backhanders, it would hardly be a surprise if someone in that position were to oppose any action which might lead to his organisation going out of existence (e.g. merger into an All-Ireland Association).
After all, the FAI were no more keen on such a development than their counterparts in Belfast, for precisely the same reasons. (And whilst we're on the subject, I'd be interested to hear the views of football fans in the Republic of the conduct and probity of Cavan's counterpart, Mr. Kilcoyne - not that that would excuse anything, I should add).
Further, I have never seen any evidence that Cavan was motivated in any way by sectarianism, either in respect of opposing an all-Ireland team or anything else, but I'm open to be corrected.
And as for the case you cite of Derry City, I don't actually remember the events myself, but I can't see the link between their leaving the Irish League and Cavan concealing any alleged corruption or protecting the IFA against merger with the FAI.
In fact, from what I've ever seen, even Derry City fans appear to reserve their wrath for the Irish League, since that is the body which controlled these things, not the IFA. If anything, had Cavan wanted to bolster the IFA against a threatened merger/takeover by the FAI, it would have been in his interests to keep Derry out of their control.
Cavan not only was instrumental in Derry's continued refusal of re-admittance to the IL, but also over a decade later tried to prevent UEFA approving Derry's entrance to the LoI (presumably for "slippy slope" reasons).
Derek Dougan RIP... He was not alone in not scoring prolifically for NI. People tend to forget Bestie only netted 9 times for the North in international games.
And may he RIP too.
I'm not speaking ill of the dead and I'm speaking solely from a football perspective, I always liked the "Doog" but never,ever rated him as a footballer!
Seen him play in a 0-3 defeat v's Spurs during a school trip in 1975.
The Doog was many things - being a man who always spoke his mind was one.
Being a man who always spoke the truth was not another.
A man of wide contradictions.
A Northern Irish version of Eamon Dunphy, in many ways.
And - a very gifted footballer, whom I had the pleasure to watch in my childhood.
May he rest in peace.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
EG,
As you are only too well aware, many supporters of an All Ireland team label anyone who opposes that notion as "sectarian".
Cavan was "guilty" only of protecting the interests of the Irish Football Association.
The Northern Irish team at the time included, as it always has and will, players from both main traditions in Northern Ireland.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
There were reports of a bust up between Derek Dougan and Harry Cavan on a flight back from Cyprus where NI lost 1-0. I don't have a source for it but remember hearing it sometime back. This was his last game for Northern Ireland This was months before the Brazil game was even organised. NI played 5 games between Nicosia and the date of the Brazi lgame.
Appreciate this is hearsay but a much more likely cause for he "being dropped" although his age would have to be a key factor as well.
Had to share this. It's from an elderly now Rep of Ireland supporter.
From the age of about 7 I was a fervent Distillery supporter. When I was 15 I was signed by Glentoran, and played mainly for their third team *Coop Recreation) in the N.I. Amateur League. I was unable to play every week as I played rugby at school on Saturday morning, In those days we used public transport to get to games and it wasn't always possible to get back in time for the football. I was selected reserve (non-playing in those days).
Distillery were the first club to install floodlights, and there was a Floodlight Competition for U18 teams for the Toby Mercer Cup. We played Distillery in the Final in 1955 and after about 15 minutes we were down to 10 players, no replacements in those days. I was put at centre-half marking this giant about 8 inches taller. He was then a regular member of the Distillery 1st team, as were two of his teamates, Denis Shiels a right winger and Harry (Tucker) Orr a left half who was a friend from Lisburn. Both Denis and Tucker went to Sheffield United at the end of the season. Dougan was transferred to Portsmouth after captaining Distillery at the age of 17.
Glentorn were rank outsiders, only an inside forward Walter Bruce was really prominent at the time.
Despite this, and playing with 10 men most of the game we won the Cup 3-1 and the "Doog" went home scoreless.
I got to know him well over the next months. Several of us would go on on Saturday nights..
When I left for England, I next met him when I went as a supporter to the 1958 World Cup, and we stayed in the Players Hotel in a small seaside resort of Tylosand, a mile or two from Halmstad when we played all the group maps.
Derek was 19 and got his first cap in the first game against czdchoslovakia when NI won 1-0. The N.i. team that evening was:
Harry Gregg,(Man U - just a few months after Munich)
Dick Keith and Alf McMichael (Newcastle) the fullbacks
Danny Blanchflower(Spurs) Willie Cunningham(Arsenal) and Bertie Peacock(Celtic) the latter reputed to have been an ex-oragemman)
Billy Bingham(Sunderland0 Wilbur Cush(Leeds) Derek Dougan
Jimmy McIlroy(Burnley) and Peter McParland(Villa)
Although I thought the Doog did okay, he was dropped for the next game against Argentina for Fay Coyle, who was also dropped aftet a game with McParland moving to centre-forward as N.I. progressed to the quarter-final.
I met Derek again on a fewoccasions when he played for Leicester, when I was living near there in the mid-sixties. But have not seen his since, although were kept in touch (infrequently)
He sent me a copy of his book (The Sash He Never Wore -Twenty Five Years On) a few years ag, with a lovely message, and a short letter.
Like others, I was amazed when I heard he had joined UKIP. It was not the Doog I knew. He was on Question Time fairly recently but I gave it a miss!
A great character did an awful lot of good for football, and I hope one day his dream - which he tried to do something about- that an all-Ireland team will come about, will come to pass.
Replying to you last point first, my father was born in Derriaghy. He was a member of the Orange Lodge there, L.O.L. 135.
To Pinkie's point - alas my few souvenirs from 1958 have long since disappeared. Lost when I was doing National Service in the RAF in Cyprus.
A friend Jim Murray and myself sailed from Tilbury in Essex to Gothenburg. It took about 18 hours. the only things i remember about the trip was that I appeared to be the only one eating a hearty breakfast on the Saturday morning - the others were leaning over the side being sick, and we appeared to be the only N.I. supporters on the boat, apart from one lovely ginger haired lady who turned out to the the wife of the manager, the wonderful Peter Doherty. No first class travel for wags in those days.
After the second game in Halmstad- defeat against Argentina, we took the train to Malmo on the south coast. After the excellent hotel in Tylosand we were running short of funds and found a B & B, not easy as there were thousands of German fans there. We thought they were aloof and arrogant, and we spent most of our time a fairly short ferry trip away in the Tivoli Gardens in Copenhagen.
One thing that may suprise you is that I would estimate that there were not more than 20-25 N.I. suppporters following the team at any one time.
After the great draw 2-2 against Germany which gave us a play-off against Czechoslavakia (again) for a quarter-final place, about 20 of us went on the field at the final whistle to cheer the team. Huge mistake. Norn Iron had played Italy in the last qualifying game, needing a win to get to the finals. it was played in December at Windsor Park, and the Match Officials were fogged in somewhere, and did not arrive. It was decided, as all the crowd were in, to go ahead and play a friendly. What a friendly it turned out to be. It finished 2-2, and the fans were incensed by the Italian players
behaviour during the game. Thousands raided the pitch at the final whistle, and I think one of the Italian players had his arm broken.
After a very hostile press, it was a surprise to many that the game was replayed at Windsor Park. A 2-1 win took Norn Iron to their first World Cup final, and incidently the first time Italy had failed to qualify.
When we left out B&B in Malmo on the way to the stadium the very kind landlady gave us a tram ticket which would have taken us past the ground. We had already decided to walk as it was under a mile. When we booked out, whe had included the few okes or whatever it was on the bill. That receipt was one of the things I kept.
After the draw with Germany we decided to stay on for the play-off game, but stayed in a very cheap but peasant place in Copenhagen.
After victory and a quarter-final in Norpopping against France beckoned, but we were literally broke and headed back to Gothenburg and a boat back to Tilbury.
On passing a newsagents Jim spotted on the front page of a local paper a huge photo of me, or my head to be precise locked in a policemans grip. It was another momento I lost.
At the Germany game, a reporter had come round to where the 20 or so supporters were gathered, and asked our names and ages, and where we were from. Inside this newspaper we saw a full page aritcle with our names mentioned. On the boat we asked a Swedish girl to translate. It said that towards the end of the game i was so nervous i was smoking two cigarettes at a time. (I didn't smoke), and it said Jim Murray was so angry when we were denied a penalty, ti reminded him of the time he was shot down in his Hurricane over the English Channel during the war. It was all made up nonsense, but in Jim's case it was something I was able to use when I was best man at his wedding a few years later - to a German girl.
N.I. had a squad of 16 players, and one Billy Simpson the Rangers centre-forward broke down on the sands in Tylosand training, and had to go home. The Czechlovakia game was on Sunday, Argentine on Wednesday, Germany on Sunday, Czechoslovakia again on Tuesday, and the quarter-final against France on the Thursday.
Harry Gregg, suffered a bad injury against German, and Norman Uprichard played in the play-off, but broke his hand. Harry who had been walking with the aid of a stick on the Wednesday had to play the following day.
When you said in your first sentence that what you wanted to know, and everyone too polite to ask,, I thought you were going to ask me too explain how someone born 70 years ago into a staunchly loyalist family in N. I. ends up supporting ROI?
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"It's time for the FAI to grow up." John O'Donoghue, Minister for Sport, RTE , Sunday 7 Nov 2004
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