World Ranking

[Gather round]

I think it would be interesting and wouldn't necessarily damage our chances of qualification compared to how often we currently qualify. Additional countries at each seed level almost guarantees us a second place seeding, dilutes (a little bit) the seedings at level one and three. It would still be tough but not necessarily tougher. We'd still need a good draw and good performances to qualify as we do now...

If anything it could be a bit easier (ie you'd still need to be one of the 12 or 13 top teams in Europe, just playing a couple of less games to do it.

How would you see it as a NI fan?

I like groups of six because we get 10 games per two year cycle. A reduction to six or eight would be disappointing. As above I agree with you, a larger number of smaller groups wouldn't make that much difference to chances of qualifying.

If [San Marino] win their pre qualifying group they can still achieve their dream of losing 10-0 to Germany!

At the moment they're guaranteed a double-header against one of Europe's top nine in every competition. Past record suggests they're unlikely to get out if any pre-qualifying tournament.

[Gather round]

Except the 'big' teams, obviously not Ireland, would want 'a second bite at the cherry', especially with World Cups, as now...

Yes, the play-offs exist mainly as a back-up guarantee for England, France & co., not to whittle down an unwieldy number of minnows. As I explained above, UEFA could comfortably have 60-65 teams in its qualifiers without either a) overloading the fixture list, b) excluding anyone, or c) significantly changing most teams' chances of progress.

And if the minnows want more competitive games, it would encourage them to improve their standards

Survival of the fittest eh? Except maybe not. One of the best encouragements to improved standards is better investment in facilities, coaches etc. If San Marino never progress through pre-qualifying, they're unlikely to find the money for those improvements.

Because they can see the idiocy of too many games. There is far too much football already!

There isn't for teams (like Guinea-Bissau, say) who only played two games in African qualifying for 2010, losing 1-0 on aggregate to Sierra Leone. After G-B and a couple of other minnows departed, there were two further group stages to reduce 48 to 20 and thus to five. In other words, far too many unnecessary games. Many of them could have been avoided if everyone had a full group's fixtures, and then they used play-offs at the end instead. But as above, of course Africa's (relatively) big boys like Europe's have to be protected.

Plus there's that thing about imminent synchronization of all the international football fixtures all into fixed slots in the calendar

Is that really going to happen? The African Cup in June would be crazy, not to mention a Qatar finals...

Because they're just another pointless colonial outpost...part of Britain and their 'overseas territories'.


Not especially picking on the Brits, but them having 4 teams is now a joke

Whatever you think of Gibraltar, it obviously isn't part of either England or Spain. How is England having their own team any more of a joke than it ever was, given that other non-sovereign countries (Faeroes) and tax havens effectively run from nearby bigger states (Liechtenstein, Andorra) have joined recently?

what happens to the hosts? Plus it's a disgrace that the previous winners of any tournament don't get a bye to the next Finals IMO. Or some sort of advantage in kind

The hosts, not a problem. They get one of Europe's 13 places. I don't agree with holders getting a bye- each tournament is self-contained. Although having won one you'll almost certainly be top-seeded for the next. What's disgraceful about it?

Except there are now too many countries in Europe

I've explained above that- for the purpose of a qualifying tournament if nothing else- they could easily manage 12 more countries, nearly an extra 25%!

They could start by kicking out Israel, Turkey and the the Kazakhs. Europe doesn't need them. And the first two would find it easier to qualify through Asia anyway

Israel wouldn't, the AFC won't have them. Turkey straddles both Europe and Asia, what's the problem? You could have an equally arbitrary criterion than only peninsular European countries get in

Bad analogy. ManU have played Chelsea far more than they'll ever play Donny or other teams from the lower reaches of the top two divisions

No, I think the analogy's fair, although I could have explained more fully. The FA Cup third round is roughly analagous to UEFA national qualifying in that San Marino have an equal chance of drawing any one of 45 teams, just like Spain, or almost like Donny who are as likely to get ManU at that stage as Chelsea are.

Whereas if San Marino are relegated to pre-qualifying, they'll almost certainly never get out of it regardless of whether UEFA has 53 or 65 members.

[ArdeeBhoy]

They don't need or want 65 teams. It's around 15 too many.

San Marino & co are unlikely to ever significantly improve. Even assuming they wanted to...

There is far too much football period ;most African teams can barely afford the travel and hotels, let alone a dozen long distance games a season.
Including in many cases, flying in their own players!

The synchronization thing will happen, just when it's introduced, so qualifiers will be stuck in 4 fixed slots per tournament I believe.

Gibraltar, like the North and numerous other obscure outposts comes under London's rule. Enough said.
They need to rationalise/reduce the numbers, otherwise far more legitimate territories like Bavaria or Catalonia could claim a team.
Part of this is a geographical restriction, including Turkey, Israel and anyone on the fringes.
Unless there's pre-qualifying, keeping likely play-offs, the numbers are just too high.

Though I accept the play-off winners in pre-Qualifying could play against other sides to determine whether they get a place or the 'main pot' in the future and to rotate the minnows, potentially.

Lastly, that analogy is awful. Better teams tend to play better teams more often. End of story.

[geysir]

Money is the major issue for many associations in Africa, it's for obvious reasons why they have their qual format.

As it stands now, San Marino and Andorra are the two dead cert cannon fodder teams. Possibly have a play off with the next 2 higher ranked teams for the WC qual draw, but I can't see it happening unless there's more than 54 teams in the draw.
The rest of the minnows deserve to have their day. So what if a top class team like Ireland has to travel once in 2 years to these 'hovels'.

[osarusan]

The rest of the minnows deserve to have their day. So what if a top class team like Ireland has to travel once in 2 years to these 'hovels'.

I'd second this, except I'd include both San Marino and Andorra in the list of minnows deserving to have their day. They have as much right to enter the competitions as anybody else, and we have no right to be putting extra conditions on their entrance to qualifying proper.

I don't agree whatsoever with the idea that getting them involved in a playoff or a group against some other low ranking countries, resulting the elimination of most of them, would somehow help develop them as a football team.

The whole thing reads to me as 'it's a waste of our time playing the likes of these.'

[DeLorean]

The whole thing reads to me as 'it's a waste of our time playing the likes of these.'

It is a waste of time though, especially as the six points everybody picks up against them end up being discarded anyway.

That said, I can totally see the 'defending the underdog' point of view, and it would be a bit of a blow for the people of San Marino, Andorra, etc. not to have the possibility of Spain and co. coming to town every so often. I'm not overly passionate about my point of view on this really. It annoys me far more the ease in which some countries from other confederations qualify for the World Cup.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm not overly passionate about my point of view on this really. It annoys me far more the ease in which some countries from other confederations qualify for the World Cup.

hear hear. An Aussie colleague at work thinks they're some sort of force because they qualify regularly now. I'd love to see how they'd fare in a European qualification round.

[IsMiseSean]

Didn't Australia move to Asia to increase their chances of qualifying? But now there's a place for Oceania anyway...

[DeLorean]

They used have to play off with the 5th placed South Americans every eight years I think. They played Uruguay a couple of times, winning once and losing one. In between that I remember them losing to Iran on away goals I think, which would have been a huge opportunity blown at the time. Playing off with the 5th best in South American was probably a bit too tough to be fair, I'm not sure we'd qualify too often in those circumstances either.

[geysir]

Australia did better than quite a few European teams managed to do at the WC and finished ahead of teams that knocked us out of the last 2 World Cups.
They certainly have had a better team than us, over these last 2 world cup periods.

[Crosby87]

Not hard to imagine really they have a pop of 22,620,600 people.

One thing that i think is weird though, on "Undercover Boss Australia" they did one with the CEO of Dominoes Pizza Australia, and i noticed that when you order a pizza there, when you open the door, they shake your hand and tell you what their name is (The delivery person.) That would annoy me.

[Stuttgart88]

Australia did better than quite a few European teams managed to do at the WC and finished ahead of teams that knocked us out of the last 2 World Cups.
They certainly have had a better team than us, over these last 2 world cup periods.

Marginally I reckon, if it all, but that's neither here nor there. They'd struggle to qualify from a European Group, just like we do. We only got into WC02 because we drew Iran.

[IsMiseSean]

We only got into WC02 because we drew Iran.

That's a bit harsh. When you look at it, we finished level on points with Portugal, finished above Holland and had the best record of all the 2nd place teams.

[Yard of Pace]

Not hard to imagine really they have a pop of 22,620,600 people.

One thing that i think is weird though, on "Undercover Boss Australia" they did one with the CEO of Dominoes Pizza Australia, and i noticed that when you order a pizza there, when you open the door, they shake your hand and tell you what their name is (The delivery person.) That would annoy me.

That's utterly bizarre.

Also, the only time I (or, I would hope, most people) would order a Dominos Pizza is when I am absolutely hungover to hell. In which case, it would be tantamount to employee abuse for the poor delivery person to have to touch any part of my anatomy, and, in particular, my right hand.

[Charlie Darwin]

That's utterly bizarre.

Also, the only time I (or, I would hope, most people) would order a Dominos Pizza is when I am absolutely hungover to hell. In which case, it would be tantamount to employee abuse for the poor delivery person to have to touch any part of my anatomy, and, in particular, my right hand.

Luckily, they shake with their left hands down there. Everything is opposite. I'm sure one of our Australia-based members can confirm.

[Crosby87]

Do you chaps have Dominos in Ireland? The Cheese steak pie isn't bad Pacer but yes absolutely must be hungover.

[geysir]

That's a bit harsh. When you look at it, we finished level on points with Portugal, finished above Holland and had the best record of all the 2nd place teams.

Yes we did very well in the group, but we still finished 2nd. Maybe Stutts' point was that for play-off opponents we were fortunate to get Iran and might have struggled against stronger European opponents. Iran just had no belief in the 2nd leg, when a goal for them would have turned us to jelly.
Australia just have to deal with the likes of Iran in order to qualify. A definite easier path to the Finals than what we have in the UEFA zone.

Still, Australia topped the Asian qualifiers and I think they have justified their presence on merit in the last 2 World Cups, whilst we have no argument (yet) of equality, because of our results at Euro 2012.

[Crosby87]

I know this has been here a million times but.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNwXFnqBzHg

[Stuttgart88]

That's a bit harsh. When you look at it, we finished level on points with Portugal, finished above Holland and had the best record of all the 2nd place teams.

Yes, that's totally fair but I still feel we'd have struggled against another European side despite having such a good campaign. We had a very good campaign when the last second equaliser in Macedonia cost us outright qualification, but still went out to Turkey.

[DannyInvincible]

Not hard to imagine really they have a pop of 22,620,600 people.

Population doesn't have that significant a bearing on success. India are ranked 143rd with a population of over a billion people. Meanwhile, Uruguay, with a population of under four million, are ranked 16th at present and were ranked as high as second within the last year.