Originally Posted by youngirish
Poot Stutts getting lobbed in with this pool of thought. Rescue yourself soon Stutts.
In Trap we trust
Could be worse. He could be simmering in the pot of your great footballing wisdom and predictions which you regularly display on these boards. An empty pot.
You still hanging around Ipswich waiting for Alex Bruce to turn into the next Franz Beckenbauer?
Last edited by youngirish; 20/06/2007 at 4:32 PM.
He may not get as many games or goals as O'Shea but is a much better player. God knows how O'Shea gets a game for Man United. Fletcher may not be brilliant which I'm not claiming he is but would currently get in the Irish side no problem. When Carsley, Stephen Ireland and the two Reids are your competition a lot of players would stand a decent chance of getting in that midfield.
We should run a poll in an alternative thread for this one as I feel even Ireland fans would admit Fletcher would get in their side.
As I said, he was injured while there. Again no great player and possibly not even as good as Stephen Reid but would certainly challenge for a place in your side, and given that your initial assertion was that you had 'far better individuals', I think I'm right to challenge you on this.
I'm the one who's talking rubbish? Seriously? Even the most one-eyed of Ireland fans would have to admit that Big Jack overachieved a fair bit with Ireland. Again run a poll on this here and I think you'd find the opposite is the case.
You're basically saying there that that Irish side would have comfortably been among the top 5 teams in the world. I'll let any neutrals decide for themselves who's talking rubbish here.
And by the way, history goes back a fair bit longer than the period you selectively chose to make your point. Prior to the war, Scotland always had better teams. That counts for something, well more than your 'we qualified for one more world cup in this or that period of time' argument.
As for the Ukraine players playing in the Champions League. What you neglected to mention is that the vast majority of them play for Dinamo Kiev who's record in the past few years has been dismal to say the least. To say they are better than Czechs even on current form is more rubbish but don't let the facts obscure a good point.
Given that the words were 'mismanagement' rather than 'having a crap manager' I feel that is a reasonable assessment.
Also, Germany are a top top team-not to take anything away from Vogts there but a lot of managers could have won a tournament with them.
And that was over a decade ago. When judging managers, you have to go on their most recent record. And Vogts's record with Scotland was......not the best, to be fair.
They're the fourth seeds so if they were in our group it'd look like this:
Germany
Czech Rep
Rep of Ireland
Scotland
Wales
Cyprus
San Marino
I think they'd finish above us, you, Cyprus and San Marino on current form. That's third. You could perhaps argue that you or indeed us might beat them in our games but I doubt we'd have the consistency to finish above them, considering some of our results in this group-Cyprus San marino, Slovakia etc. That's an honest opinion. The Czechs too would be struggling as I said we should have won home and away against them or at least got a draw. The only team who would definitely finish above them would be the Germans.
You use the word 'hammered' pretty liberally there. Ukraine v Scotland was 0-0 until about the 70th minute and it was a very close game-I watched it, to be sure.
The Italians always win their home qualifiers and they are the best team in the world. Not really anything to be ashamed about there, either.
The last camapign was pretty awful from Scotland but I think you can put that down to the Vogts effect. You might argue Ireland are the same with Staunton and you might have a valid point but I think the two teams are at least equal in terms of player ability.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
Regarding having a similar level of players to us, that is Cymro a load of old nonsense and you know it.
Finnan - a champions league winner and arguably one of the best right backs in the world. Recognised as such by his fellow professionals as he is a regular in the Premiership team of the season.
Given - one of the best Premiership keepers for over a decade. Again possibly one of the best in the world in his position and also a regular member of the team of the season (more so than any other goalkeeper in Premiership history if memory serves me correctly).
Robbie Keane - commanded tens of millions of pounds in transfer fees from top clubs all over Europe before he was 22, keeps an England International out of the first team at Spurs.
Damien Duff - won the Premiership twice. Until recently one of the most highly rated wingers in the Premiership until struggling with injury problems recently however can still turn on the style on his day and would stroll into the Scotland team on one leg (McGeady would even get his game for them).
Richard Dunne - Man City player of the season a record 3 times in a row ahead of Shaun Wright Phillips a few seasons ago another full English International.
Kevin Doyle - unarguably one of the best young players in probably the strongest league in the world at present. A nominee for young player of the season even after a long period of abscence through injury.
McShane - one of the most sought after young players outside the Premiership
Scotland
Shaun Maloney - Average (at best) Villa player.
Barry Ferguson - Blackburn reject nowhere near as good as any of our midfielders (even young Stephen Ireland).
Darren Fletcher - United part time player, atrocious. As I said similar to JOS and anyone that thinks we need him in our team needs serious help.
Kenny Miller - Average Championship striker.
Kris Boyd - Decent SPL striker, doubt he has the pace to make it in a more competitive league. Would get a place on our bench.
Cyrmo give it up if you are seriously suggesting Scotland have better or even as good individual players as us then you have a serious bias against the Republic team. Any neutral with a clue about football would struggle to find more than 2 players in their team that are of better quality than one of our players in the same position.
Last edited by youngirish; 20/06/2007 at 6:41 PM.
Ferguson and Fletcher* would get into our midfield. We have some good midfielders but there's a strong suspicion that it's lightweight ...mainly due to well -it being lightweight. That it has to be bolstered by Lee Carsley who was not so long ago considered surplus to requirments is evidence of this. Our midfield is crying out for a Ferguson type player.
*Roy Keane reputedly spent no small amount of effort trying to persuade Fletcher to play for Ireland instead of the Scots.
YI -will you ever take the steel rod out of your ass. Now Cymro AND Ealing Green have it in for us because they're "biased"? Jesus aren't we blessed to have your non-hysterical, non-partisan analysis of the relative merits of those togging out for neighbouring associations -not to mind our own.Cyrmo give it up if you are seriously suggesting Scotland have better or even as good individual players as us then you have a serious bias against the Republic team.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Seriously mate I'm beginning to think you've a problem with my opinion on Scottish based players.How in the name of jaysus could anyone who has seen much Maloney in the last couple of years call him average at best? At least I'm absolutely certain you'll be proven wrong on that one in time.
You accuse me of bias, then go on to write an entirely green-tinted reply to my post.
I can accept that Given and Finnan are probably better than anything Scotland have, but the rest of your side is honestly no better. I'll now explain why.
Tens of millions? He was transferred once for about £8m, that's about £1.5m more than Barry Ferguson cost Blackburn from Rangers, and it seems you like to hang him up as an example of how poor Scotland supposedly are.
Also, Defoe hasn't been in the England squad for a good year or so.
His day hasn't come around for a while now. I'm not denying he has talent but in the last 2 or 3 years he's done nothing to show he's not a shadow of his former self. And unless he does show this next year, he can't really be considered a top player. At best, the jury's out there.
Wright-Phillips hasn't been at Man City for two of those three season. And Man City are crap-not hard to be POY there.
Whilst I can see that Doyle is a player with plenty of potential, he's ultimately unproven at the top level yet. Think of the likes of Francis Jeffers for players whose careers were similar to Doyle's so far-one excellent season in the Premiership-but have gone swiftly downhill since. Time will tell.
On what do you base this? What top clubs have shown interest in him? Better yet, have any clubs shown interest in him? Also, he was allowed to go by Alex Ferguson. If he'd have been good enough to make it to the top he probably wouldn't have been.
And see the debate we had in World Football for why La Liga is the best league in the world.
He's only been there since January, ffs, and he's had some good games for them in that time.
I've twice mentioned that he had bad luck with injuries while there and never had the chance to make an impact. We can only speculate as to whether he would have been a success, but considering Blackburn would not sell him back to Rangers for less than they bought him (£6.5m) it would suggest they thought he was worth hanging on to.
'Part time' in probably the Premiership's best midfield is no bad thing. Also, it's also an inaccurate description since Fletcher made 40 (11 sub) appearances for them last term.
And let's not forget a couple of the very decent Scottish players you left out:
-Craig Gordon, who could well become as good a player as Given in time, and is certainly a better player than any of Ireland's other options in goal
-Kenny Miller, who OK plays in the SPL but was a huge hit at Wolves and had plenty of interest from Premiership clubs
Those two plus Fletcher would definitely be better than your average player. Scotland have a lot of other solid Old Firm/Premiership performers too, most of whom are the same level as your average players.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
I don't 'have it in' for anyone, not even youngirish. But this is a debate and as such I am entitled to be blunt in my views if I strongly disagree with someone.
YI -will you ever take the steel rod out of your ass. Now Cymro AND Ealing Green have it in for us because they're "biased"? Jesus aren't we blessed to have your non-hysterical, non-partisan analysis of the relative merits of those togging out for neighbouring associations -not to mind our own.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
Robbie Keane also transferred for 13 million, 12 million and 6 million. Leave those out did you?
Barry Ferguson being rubbish at Blackburn due to injuries? I watched him lots of times when fit and he was cr*p.
Defoe is currently still a regular in English squads and it's blatantly untrue to say he hasn't been in a squad for more than a year.
Doyle being compared to Francis Jeffers? (Doyle was also player of the year in the Championship the season before last so he's not a one season wonder).
I'd say Man City are better than any team in the SPL bar Celtic btw.
Duff injury prone or otherwise is still unarguably more talented than anything Scotland have.
Kenny Miller was average in the Championship whatever you like to believe. Keogh is more highly rated at Wolves than he ever was and he doesn't even get into our full strength squad.
Craig Gordon as good as Given? Ha ha ha.
Sorry but you honestly don't have a leg to stand on you are starting to mix blatant untruths (Defoe) with delusional rabble.
Last edited by youngirish; 20/06/2007 at 7:30 PM.
In fairness Dunne has probably been the best defender in the Premiership over the past 2 seasons.
Slight exaggeration there Dmanetc. but he's certainly been very good - I'm surprised not to see a bigger club come in for him.
I'm not exaggerating.
I agree, I find Stutts very sensible. It was a terribly unfair allegation.
Defoe played for England 8 times last season - http://www.soccerbase.com/players_de...playerid=17118 - and was on the bench for their last game against Estonia - http://www.soccerbase.com/results3.sd?gameid=516362
True. but in the other 2 seasons, Dunne finished ahead of Andy Cole (the top scorer that season) and Barton. The previous year he finished second behind Anelka IIRC, and again ahead of SWP
Aston Villa and Sunderland have both expressed an interest. Ferguson didn't let him go, he left of his own accord after Ferguson couldn't guarantee him first team football.
Shouldn't you be off doing the lotto because you know what numbers are going to come out tonight? At least that's what you'll tell people tomorrow in the pub but alas you never got round to buying a ticket.
Either that or trying to predict the Ireland team in 3012 when the planet is ruled by apes.
Last edited by youngirish; 20/06/2007 at 7:48 PM.
A significant amount of your post just dismisses my claims offering nothing to back it up. Examples:
And yet as I said, Blackburn were not willing to let him go for less than they paid. They obviously thought he worth hanging on to. Your counter-argument here is just an opinion that offers nothing to back it up.
Purely speculative-I don't agree, and while I can admit there is a possibility you may be right, it is entirely an opinion and I bet quite a few would disagree with you there. What can't be argued is that Celtic would be a top 8 Premiership team and Scotland draw a lot of internationals from their side. If you want to deny that Celtic would be top 8, you'd be contradicting an awful lot of factual evidence, in the form of results. Look at Celtic's recent European record against Premiership clubs-it speaks for itself.
He hasn't really played for two years and when he has he's been unspectacular. If fully fit and on form I would agree but it's been a long long time since that was the case. Indeed that was my original point but again you've conveniently ignored that.
And Miller was so average at Championship level that he was frequently attracting attention from Premiership sides and scored plenty for Wolves even when they were not playing as well as they should have been. He was top scorer for them in both his last two seasons following their relegation from the Premiership.
So to suggest that Keogh who has a solid record in the lower English leagues but is relatively unproven at Championship level is better is plain ignorance.
(In this case, you take something I've said and twisted it to make me look like I've said something delusional, so that you have a counter-argument, instead of actually taking my comment at face value and trying to address it. If you read my comment, you'd have seen what I actually said was more along the lines of 'Gordon is better than the average Irish player, and could go on to be as good as Given'. If you can't admit to that as a possibility, you're the one being delusional)
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
He certainly made Bale look very average. As for McShane, plenty of clubs are interested in him because he'll be a top player. You think we're biased saying that though. It's pretty clear he has a great future. Actually, I think you're taking it to the extreme to try and balance out the bias which we must have since we're so positive about the current set of players.
Last edited by eirebhoy; 20/06/2007 at 8:02 PM.
No disrespect but performing slightly above the average in a game that ranks among the worst I've seen in ages does not make him a top player.
Bale is 17, and had just played an awful lot of Championship games in a short space of time. Considering the physicality of Championship football, he was probably exhausted by the end of that game.
And the rest of the Welsh defence Duff played against included a man who 10 months prior was playing in the Welsh Premier, a man who couldn't get a game at West Ham and a man who couldn't get a game at Sunderland.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
Let's get one thing straight here-I'm not saying McShane is crap. I'm saying he's unproven at any level above Championship, and I'm also saying that youngirish is talking out of his arse if he rates him as 'way better than anything Scotland have'.
My comments are all being taken out of context.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
look, its pretty simple. Neither the Irish team nor the Scots are good teams. YoungIrish, your posts are a bit embarrassing really.
If you want to look at history, the Scots' history and tradition in qualifying for major tournaments is far and away better than ours. We had a good spell in the late 80s, early 90s but thats hardly relevant in terms of how good we are now.
Ignoring history and looking at the current state of each squad, Ferguson (maybe) and Fletcher (definitely) would be in the Irish team/squad (probably others too). Strangely, however, i dont envy the Scottish position as i feel our team has greater potential and a brighter future but to say that we are a far superior team TODAY is way way off the mark. We should discuss it in 2-4 years time.
Cymro, i tend to agree with most of your posts on this matter but to say the Jack Charlton simply overachieved is not fair. It is widely acknowledged that we had a very talented squad of players from 87-96. A lot of the players would have walked onto the English team from the same era. McGrath, Whelan, Brady, O'Leary, Stapleton, Irwin, Aldridge to name a few.
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