QuoteA realistic assessment unlike some of the pro Scotland rubbish spouted on here.Originally Posted by Torn-Ado
We will finish 3rd and Scotland will finish 4th.
If I had to be honest, that would be my assessment.
I think I should the parachute, because I'm great.
In fact, I think I should get both parachutes, in case one doesn't work.
A realistic assessment unlike some of the pro Scotland rubbish spouted on here.
What bandwagon? I already said I wouldn't swap groups with them. You already mentioned some of the players who'd grace our team ...I'll add Naysmith and probably O'Connor with him (notwithstanding he's a petulent little fcuker).
If we were in Scotlands group - being hopelessly mismanaged as we are -then we'd be dead in the water by now. That's not slighting our players -who I'm on record here as saying are a better crop than Mick McCarthy had available to him in his first couple of years. For that matter if we were in Northern Irelands group -with them, Spain, Denmark and Sweden ...frankly I shudder to think of it.
What years? They'd qualified for three world cups before we qualified for anything. They qualified for Euro 96 when we ****ed it away because we indulged the drinking clubs in our squad and Jacks derogation of responsibility and they qualified for France 98 when we were losing to Macedonia and drawing at home to Iceland. Hows that consistently better?
By the way ...our "very good chance of qualifying" that you refer to is based on two unimpressive wins against San Marino. Take them out of the equation and you get a far more realistic view of where we are in this group.
Scots content to finish fourth? You're having a laugh. If they finish fourth there'll be mumblings about Smiths treachery and McLeish fecking it up on them. If we finish fourth -it'll arguably be a commendable recovery.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
I'm afraid you're wrong on all four counts.
1. I've seen Ukraine fairly recently when they played Scotland-it was on the BBC. Nothing really special, but they'd be right up there in our group, don't worry about that.
2. Know none of their players? Aside from having one of the world's best strikers and having solid, Premiership standard performers in other positions-most of them play regular Champions' League footy too-and having seen them play us three to four times fairly recently plus the aforementioned game v Scotland, yeah, you're right. I know nothing about them. How silly of me to claim that I do.
3. I've seen them play alright. I saw them when we played them last (we won 1-0) and in three major tournaments since then. Their record is fairly mediocre outside of qualifying for these things, apart from WC 2006 where home support carried them through to 3rd place. I remember seeing them struggle really badly for 90 minutes against Latvia in Euro 2004, and going out of the group stage in that competition.
4. A lot's been said about the current Welsh team. I'd say it's the worst for about a decade and we still really should have beaten the Czechs home and away. Ukraine would likely do them if they played tomorrow.
Or the pro Ireland rubbish?
If you lose to Slovakia, you'll likely finish fourth, with your toughest games ahead of you.
Scotland may yet finish fourth in their group, but would still be a better side than Ireland, even if they did.
Go ahead and try to argue that those players wouldn't get into the Irish side. I could do with a laugh.
Possibly the two strikers may not but I'd say they'd push your current two. To be fair Doyle and Keane are just about your best players apart from Given and if you had injuries to either of those two I think they'd get in your side.
As for the midfielders, if Fletcher was Irish you'd be writing me an essay on how good he is right now.
I'd say it's the opposite myself. Mick McCarthy like Jack Charlton got you places you had no right to be (and I don't mean that disrespectfully). Kerr found your level which is pushing to qualify for tournaments but occasionally coming up short.
On the other hand, Scotland have had a German f*ckwit in charge for 4 years. That man is worse than Sven I swear. We beat Vogts' Scotland 4-0 and they were probably League One standard that day in terms of defending. Las I saw them they were far far better, most likely down to having a manager who could communicate to the players.
You may be going through a similar thing with Staunton, but that is hardly 'years of mismanagement'. The man hasn't even had a campaign yet.
And to be fair if you haven't seen one of Bobby Gould's teams I don't feel you can fully appreciate the true meaning of the phrase 'mismanagement'.
Scotland used to qualify regularly for every tournament going. In terms of history, they're ahead of Ireland.
Last edited by gustavo; 20/06/2007 at 8:21 AM.
"Life is like a hair on a toilet seat. Sooner or later you are bound to get pi$$ed off."
"In this league, a draw is sometimes as good as a win" - Steve Morison
Cymro if you seriously consider yourself a football fan and you are genuinely stating that Darren Fletcher is better than anything we have in central midfield then give up and support hockey or something. Darren Fletcher is the midfield version of John O'Shea at United but without getting as many games or goals. He is absolute pants. The rest of your essay can be ignored on the basis of this ridiculous statement above.
As for Barry Ferguson, a failed Blackburn Rovers joke of a player getting into the Ireland team instead of a younger more highly rated current Blackburn Rovers player Stephen Reid, this says it all to me. Barry Ferguson looks good against Inverness Caledonian Thistle, stick him up against some real players and his lack of quality has always been glaring to see.
As for Scotland qualifying for lots of tournaments pre the Crimean War, yeah great they also have a great record in those tournaments. In every one we've been in we've done far better than their best performance in any they've been in. Oh yeah and we've qualified for 3 world cups out of the last 5 while they've qualified for only 2 so in recent years I'd say we have a way better record but argue that all you like. As for Mick McCarthy and Jack Charlton getting us places we had no right to be, more absolute garbage, Under Charlton we had a 1-11 at various stages of his time in charge, the majority of which would have walked into the English team at the time (a team that got to the semi-finals of the world cup). Don't talk such rubbish.
As for the Ukraine players playing in the Champions League. What you neglected to mention is that the vast majority of them play for Dinamo Kiev who's record in the past few years has been dismal to say the least. To say they are better than Czechs even on current form is more rubbish but don't let the facts obscure a good point.
As for Bertie Vogts being a f**kwit? Didn't he win the European Championship as a manager? Yeah Stan is a better manager than him. Were you on smack typing this post up?
I'm not all pro Ireland either, I think at present we are pretty average, but Scotland are sh*te and I doubt they would finish higher than fourth in our group either. The Slovaks and Czechs would have them particularly away where their record is muck.
Anyway I love all these reactionist types that after a win or two they claim the team is brilliant ignoring all their previous recent history. How easily you forget in the last qualifying campaign less than two years ago with the same players Scotland were absolute pants. Belarus at home anyone? But as I said don't bother trying to remember that far back. Take only the last 2 or 3 games that's all that counts (didn't they get hammerred 2-0 by both Ukraine and Italy recently and struggle to a lucky 2-1 win at home against Georgia - a team worse than Wales?).
Last edited by youngirish; 20/06/2007 at 9:44 AM.
If it counts for anything (and it doesn't before you all say it!), I think Cymro's analysis is spot on and (no offence) Young Irish is both underrating Scotland and overrating the ROI, at least over the last couple of years.
If you look at recent results on the pitch during that time, Scotland have performed very well in what is by far the toughest of all Euro Qualifying Groups*, including victories against top-ranked teams. Whereas ROI have been average at best (narrow wins over Wales and Slovakia) or very poor (San Marino, Cyprus).
As I see it, these respective performances have been achieved despite the fact that on paper, the ROI squad should be at least as good as Scotland's, if not rather better. The difference may be accounted for quite simply by sound management by Smith/McLeish, as compared to uninspired management by Kerr, followed by dreadful management by Stan (imo).
Which is why, to return to the topic of the thread, whether any of us thinks Scotland should be World ranked 14th, 24th or 34th, they deserve to have risen above other teams who have underperformed in recent years, including ROI (imo)
* - There is an argument to be made for saying that Scotland just being squeezed into finishing fourth in their Group would be as credible (or better, even) than, say, the ROI finishing 3rd in theirs, when you take into account the respective strength of opposition.
Whatever about ability, Scotland have a few things going for them that we have been struggling with:
- Physical match for their opponents: in midfield in particular they don't get overrun.
- Moral stature:their players are mature and committed
- Sense of reality: I think few in the Scotland camp go back to their clubs after playing for their country content & smug in their highly paid safety zone
- Sense of priority: for many of the Scottish players qualifying for a tournament would be the highlight of their careers. Our English based players probably think finishing 4th in the Premiership / qualifying for UEFA Cup / avoiding relegation is the objective of their season. Or maybe getting an autobiography published.
Inject above factors to the players we can choose from and the last 4 years may have been different for us.
So to be clear you'd like us to ignore their more recent history AND their more distant history? So which bit of their history would you like us to believe?
Since you're obsessed with people getting their facts right here's a couple for you.
Fact 1. They qualified for several tournaments before we ever did
Fact 2. They qualified for as many tournaments as we did in the 90's
This bit's worth it's own quote though
Check out the big brain on Youngirish. 3 is a "way better" number than 2. Good to see you're lickspittle-toned posting on here isn't keeping you from watching The Numberjacks.Oh yeah and we've qualified for 3 world cups out of the last 5 while they've qualified for only 2 so in recent years I'd say we have a way better record but argue that all you like. Don't talk such rubbish.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Hang on a second ...I got one of my facts wrong!!!
Scotland qualified for more tournaments than us in the 90's.
Because 3 is bigger and way better than 2. Sheesh ...thank feck for the Numberjacks
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
i watch scotland all the time , they are far from sh1te , they're not great i'll give you that but they punch their weight and if you are below par on the day ( see france) they'll punish you. i think young irish has a point about barry ferguson though.
whatever about the world rankings you can only beat the team you're up against. if we go to eastern europe in september and bring back 4-6 points then we can ignore all comparisons with scotland and N. Ireland. Until then we have done nothing to compare with these two teams who have put serious teams like france and spain to the sword in this campaign.
Was he crazy!! Yeah , in a very special way , an Irishman.
I slept, and dreamed that life was Beauty;
I woke, and found that life was Duty.
Agreed! Well said that man.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
No it doesn't.If it counts for anything (and it doesn't before you all say it!
I'd say two second round appearances and a quarter final appearance are way better than 2 first round exits (one to Costa Rica). Yeah but as I said believe what you want it's the taking part that counts after all (South Korea are as good as Italy btw because they've qualified for the same number of World Cups recently) but try to stay on the methadone. Also stop bringing up ancient stats about qualifying for ancient tournaments. Who cares? I thought I addressed this in my previous post but I'll sum it up, Hughie Gallacher doesn't play for Scotland anymore you sausage. As for EalingGreen disagreeing and stating Scotland are better than the Republic. How surprising is that? He probably still thinks David Healy is better than Henry because he scored more goals against Liechenstein so I tend to treat everything that he says about ROI or NI for that matter with an ocean of salt.
As for bringing 4-6 points back from Eastern Europe Scotland would be lucky to get 1 in the same fixtures so I don't see how that's relevant.
Btw lads for all the sh*te spouted on here we are still better odds to qualify for the Euros than both Northen Ireland and Scotland (far better) in every bookies going and don't take this the wrong way but I think they know a bit more about football than Lionel Ritchie, Cymro and EalingGreen.
Last edited by youngirish; 20/06/2007 at 1:38 PM.
We've been over this before, but on recent away form (last year, last 2 years, last 3 years....last 20 years) you'd give the Scots a better chance in Slovakia & Czech Republic than us. It's a lot less than 20 years since they beat a half decent side away. Norway, Slovenia...
Aaaggghh, the ****ing Israeli equaliser!
I'd fancy us in a head to head against Scotland though, home or away.
You're being nonsensical now Youngirish. You include a twelve year (90-02) span of results pertaining to us in various competitions we were in and then demand others not use "ancient stats".
In the same twelve year timespan the scots qualified for the final stages of two tournaments we didn't make it to -which you don't want to discuss at all. Never mind how they got on in the finals -nor us for that matter - better teams than both Ireland and Scotland have gone home in the group stages of a finals having blazed their way through regional qualification.
I'll partially agree with stutt that in a one off head to head with all our best players available -we probably should beat Scotland -but with Sergeant CooCoo-Bananas running the show -I'd put the farm on the crossdressers.
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
Stutts in addition to me and a few others you are one of the few remote outposts of sanity on these boards.
A beacon of light in the darkness of irrationality.
Did you actually read what he said?
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
3 is definitely better than 2 at jumping. My daughter, an avid Numberjacks fan, says so.
You mean there are others on your level?!
Or are you trying to be humble?
54,321 sold - wws will never die - ***
---
New blog if anyone's interested - http://loihistory.wordpress.com/
LOI section on balls.ie - http://balls.ie/league-of-ireland/
I assumed he was basically agreeing with me that even with our rubbish manager we should beat them, hence backing up my original claim that they are sh*te considering we are hardly brazil.
Did you actually read what he said?
There are others yes who adhere to my teachings.You mean there are others on your level?!
Or are you trying to be humble?
Last edited by youngirish; 20/06/2007 at 2:18 PM.
either of them home or away , they still hurt
Was he crazy!! Yeah , in a very special way , an Irishman.
I slept, and dreamed that life was Beauty;
I woke, and found that life was Duty.
Posting Permissions
Bookmarks