Proportional representation Discussion

**Risteard** · 23/05/2007, 4:34 PM

AFAIK, the moratoriums are self-imposed.

Was going to set up a new thread as it could be very useful but i'll just throw it in here seen as we're polling tomorrow.
As good as all the Rock the vote and Vote or die or whatever they're called campaigns are, wouldn't we be much better telling people HOW TO vote.
ie using the STV.
For example if my candidate just makes it past the quota in the first count, all my preferences are redundant, no?
I had been voting for Lab and FG 2,3,4, and 5 after my preferred candidate for a change of government. After thinking about it i will most likely be giving them 7,8,9 and 10.
Discuss.

**Shelsman** · 23/05/2007, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by Risteard

AFAIK, the moratoriums are self-imposed.
As good as all the Rock the vote and Vote or die or whatever they're called campaigns are, wouldn't we be much better telling people HOW TO vote.
ie using the STV.

This is all covered in the Irish Times today. 'How to Use your Vote Tactically'.

Originally Posted by Risteard

For example if my candidate just makes it past the quota in the first count, all my preferences are redundant, no?
I had been voting for Lab and FG 2,3,4, and 5 after my preferred candidate for a change of government. After thinking about it i will most likely be giving them 7,8,9 and 10. Discuss.

If say your candidate requires 5,000 votes to get elected and he/she gets 5,500 votes, the extra 500 votes ( picked at random presumably! ). I'm not sure when it gets to this stage.

However, what does certainly happen is that candidates with the lowest votes who have not been initially elected ( starting with the lowest ) are eliminated one by one and the ballot cards are checked to see who the second choice -these votes are then allocated as appropriate and then it is checked if anyone else has now passed the threshold, if not, then the next lowest candidate is eliminated and the ballot cards for them checked for their number 2 and then allocated etc.
I'm not sure if it ever gets to third choice but I always fill my card out completely ( except for FF and SF of course!

).

The article in the Irish Times says that if you want to get the maximum number of candidates for your desired party into power then you should give your initial vote to the weaker candidate, if they are eliminated then your vote ( if you filled it out correctly ) will go to the stronger candidate in the same party anyway and so on. The problem with this is that if too many people do it then the good candidate doesn't get in!

**Schumi** · 23/05/2007, 7:47 PM

Originally Posted by Shelsman

If say your candidate requires 5,000 votes to get elected and he/she gets 5,500 votes, the extra 500 votes ( picked at random presumably! ). I'm not sure when it gets to this stage.

In this example, the 500 surplus votes are chosen representatively (for their second preferences) if the candidate was elected on the first count. If the candidate was elected on a later count, the last set of votes that put them over the quota are the ones used as the surplus.

**pete** · 23/05/2007, 8:56 PM

New thread created.

**Risteard** · 23/05/2007, 10:21 PM

Thanks pete.
This is important actually.

Cheers Shelsman.
One thing.

Originally Posted by Shelsman

If say your candidate requires 5,000 votes to get elected and he/she gets 5,500 votes, the extra 500 votes ( picked at random presumably! ). I'm not sure when it gets to this stage.

My reading of the Irish Times (and my father) appears to contradict this.
Apparently after the first count, if quota is 8,000 and poll-topper gets 10,000, ALL 10,000 votes second preferences are distributed but only weighted as a % of the 2,000 surplus.
Eg if 5,000 of the 10,000 votes (50%) for poll-topper are transfers to his/her running-mate, then the running-mate receives 1,000 votes (50% of the surplus).
1,000 of the poll-toppers votes are then physically transferred to the running-mates pile.
In later counts, the counting of surpluses is taken from the last votes counted. eg. 537 over quota = count the transfers of the most recent 537 votes.
Correct?

The message of this is as i read it . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . If you've any time at all for the lesser-known candidates, they should get your number 1 and 2 as your vote for either coalition will still definitely be counted.*

A 6 is as good as a 1.
Me likes the PRSTV.

*provided that the whole constituency doesn't know this.

**beautifulrock** · 23/05/2007, 10:32 PM

Preference Voting (also known as Single Transferable Vote) - This is a system that is presently in use in Australia and Ireland. Its unique value is that it provides a means of ensuring proportional representation while still allowing people to vote for individual candidates. It could be used for the American House of Representatives without requiring a constitutional amendment. It would require that congressional districts be enlarged so that more than one member would represent each district. The voter lists his preferences by placing a number beside the name of each candidate. "1" represents his first preference, "2" his second, etc. All first preferences are tallied. Anyone reaching the "quota" is elected to a seat. The quota is determined by the number of seats open and the number of ballots cast. Depending on the system used, in a three member district the quota would be between 25% and 33% of the total vote. If no one reaches a quota on the first count the candidate receiving the fewest first preference votes is eliminated. His ballots are then allotted to their second preferences. Anyone reaching the quota is then elected. If the seats have not all been filled then the last place candidate is eliminated and his ballots are assigned to the next preference. The process continues until all seats have been filled. This system is presently being used in Cambridge MA to elect the city council and school committee. This is from a website called LAbonte.com

From Wikipedia

This method of proportional representation uses a system of preferential voting to determine the results of the election

A constituency elects two or more representatives per electorate. Consequently the constituency is proportionally larger than a single member constituency. Parties tend to offer as many candidates as they most optimistically could expect to win: the major parties may nominate almost as many candidates as there are seats, while the minor parties and independents rather fewer. Voters mark their ballot, allocating preferences to their preferred ranking for some or all candidates. A successful candidate must achieve a quota being the total number of votes received divided by the number of candidates to be elected plus one ie in a nine member constituency the nquota would be the number of votes divided by 10 (9 + 1), Only in a few cases is this achieved at the first count. For the second count, if a candidate wins election his surplus vote, in excess of the quota, is transferred to his voters' second choices; otherwise, the least popular candidate is eliminated and his votes redistributed according to the second preference shown on them. This process continues for as many counts as are needed until all seats are filled. Although the counting process is complicated, voting is clear and most voters get at least one of their preferences elected. All deputies are answerable directly to their local constituents. Some political scientists argue that STV is more properly classified as 'semi-proportional' as there is no assurance of a proportional result at a nationwide level. Indeed, many advocates of STV would argue that preventing nationwide proportionality is one of the primary goals of the system, to avoid the perceived risks of a very highly fragmented legislature

**pete** · 23/05/2007, 10:47 PM

Its complicated, try not to think too much about it.

I think...
- If candidate eliminated all the 2nd preference votes are counted & transferred.
- If distributing a surplus they that a representative sample & then distribute. The problem with this is that every time you have a recount could have a different result especially when its very close.

Its am amazing system really as 1 single could case a candidate to get eliminated & then maybe lose out on thousands of transfers from other party member who distributes a transfer later. 1st preference votes are hugely important as gives you a head start but then so are transfers...

I am not member of a party & would have interest watching a count live but will be glued to the tv/teletext/internet...

**Student Mullet** · 23/05/2007, 10:55 PM

This reminds me of the "You're the Ref'" piece in the program.

You're the Returning Officer:
Myself, Bald Student, pete and beautifulrock are all running in a three seater. I'm very popular so nearly everyone votes for me number one and doesn't put down any number 2 preference. I'm elected, none of the other lads has a quota and few of my votes are transferable.
What do you do?

**Risteard** · 23/05/2007, 10:58 PM

I'm reassured by my lesson on the PRSTV.
A good system imo. If only people knew how to use it.
Now to fix this whole coalition politics crap.

what would i do?
Count all your preferences.
Multiply the figure for transfers respectively for Bald Student, pete and beautifulrock by (surplus/ total mullet 1st choice votes) and allocate this figure to each candidate.
Despite huge Mullet to Bald transfers (reverse Just For Men product) , pete sneaks in on few culchie student transfers having been near the quota originally.
Wikipedia buff beautifulrock falls to Bald student due to most of his campaign being internet based.

This makes me think you were right first time Shelsman.

**Risteard** · 23/05/2007, 11:30 PM

This should eh clear things up.
the statutes

**Calcio Jack** · 24/05/2007, 7:07 AM

No one has mentioned the unique version of PR that FF has engaged in over the years ( a high profile instance related to CJH's campaign manager who was arrested ) whereby they vote early and often !! ie they check out locally who's died and or is away and impersonate that person thereby managing to vote more than once.... Tamanay Hall has nothing on those boyos !!

**beautifulrock** · 24/05/2007, 8:15 AM

[QUOTE=Risteard;691509]I'm reassured by my lesson on the PRSTV.
A good system imo. If only people knew how to use it.
Now to fix this whole coalition politics crap.

what would i do?
Count all your preferences.
Multiply the figure for transfers respectively for Bald Student, pete and beautifulrock by (surplus/ total mullet 1st choice votes) and allocate this figure to each candidate.
Despite huge Mullet to Bald transfers (reverse Just For Men product) , pete sneaks in on few culchie student transfers having been near the quota originally.
Wikipedia buff beautifulrock falls to Bald student due to most of his campaign being internet based.

Yes, I think you have it spot on. However, if none of us reached the quota. Then the canditate with the fewest number of first pref votes gets elimanated (Pete I reckon

) The rest of us then are allocated all of his votes which are redistributed according to the second preference shown. I get elected easily of course and then my surplus is allocated to the second preference shown. However, the votes I carried from Pete's demise are now handed on to his third choice and so on. Yes it is actually complicated the more you think about it.

If you are to vote tactically, I guess the way to do it, is to give the strongest candidate your number 1 always and hope he reaches the quota at the first count easily. Then all their surplus will be passed on to the second pref candidate

**Dodge** · 24/05/2007, 8:23 AM

So to confirm the surplus being distibuted...

Its either
a) All 2nd preferences are counted and distributed propotionally
or
b) A random sample of 2nd preference votes are transfered (in the amount over the quota)

Anyone able to confirm?

**beautifulrock** · 24/05/2007, 8:37 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

So to confirm the surplus being distibuted...

Its either
a) All 2nd preferences are counted and distributed propotionally
or
b) A random sample of 2nd preference votes are transfered (in the amount over the quota)

Anyone able to confirm?

Depends, if a candidate reaches or exceeds the quota their surplus vote, in excess of the quota, is transferred to their voters' second choices. However, when the least popular candidate is eliminated then ALL his votes are redistributed according to the second preference shown on them.

**Dodge** · 24/05/2007, 8:44 AM

Originally Posted by beautifulrock

Depends, if a candidate reaches or exceeds the quota their surplus vote, in excess of the quota, is transferred to their voters' second choices

Well I did say surplus.

I want to know how they decide what actual, physical votes the surplus is. Is it simply the last few votes counted or is there a more scientific (or random) way of doing it

**Magicme** · 24/05/2007, 8:47 AM

Was explaining the system to my 9 yr old this morning and took him voting with me so he could see how it works. Mite get him to read this thread too to clear up any misunderstandings!

**Schumi** · 24/05/2007, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

I want to know how they decide what actual, physical votes the surplus is. Is it simply the last few votes counted or is there a more scientific (or random) way of doing it

As I said above it depends on whether the guy gets elected on the first count or a later count.

If he's elected on the first count, all second preferences are checked and a proportional sample makes up the surplus that is distributed.

If he's elected on a laster count, the last x votes (x being the size of the surplus) that the candidate got are the ones distributed.