dcfcsteve and Steve Bruce argue which league is better

[Steve Bruce]

Do the group stages of the Setanta Cup not count?

Apparently not. It would if Linfield didn't top it every season

[dcfcsteve]

You say it is a minority. If I went into ANY nationalist area in Belfast with my Northern Ireland top on, I would be chased out of the area.

Also you talk about this one sidedness. Of course it is, just like any other country in the world, the national team displays it's own flag and plays it's own national anthem.

There's no sectarianism at the game anymore though. So I don't know what else you expect?

I can't speak for Belfast, but I know peopel who wear their NI top around Derry without harm or molestation. But then - you Blefast lot always have been a tad less civilised...

On the 'one sidedness issue, the fact that I have to spell this out for you (as indeed for every Linfield fan) shows that you're a lost cause and won't listen or accept the viewpoint anyway. But hey - it's a Friday and the sun is shining, so I'll give it just one wee try.

The Northern Ireland international team supposedly represents a deeply divided province. Yet it does so solely through the symbnolism of only one side of that divide. Whether that symbolism is currently official or not is irrelevant, as it is still divisive. And I note that the other 'home nations' in the UK seem happy using theirt own anthems and flags, yet good old Norn Iron feels it essential to continue paying homage to the UK as a whole, ratehr than it's own weee patch of it. Even the English will eventually ditch GSTQ...

If the IFA/NI team are serious about being a team for the whole province, then they should use symbolism that would be acceptable (or at least, not alienating to) the whole province.

If that isn't acceptable to the IFA - fine. But then stop the pretense. Openly admit that the NI team intends to continue using the symbolism of only one community (whether it's 'official' or not is irrelevant), admit and accept that this will therefore cost the team Catholic/nationalist support, and then accept the enusing consequences when the team/IFA goes looking for political support, funding etc.

No doubt you'll hide behind the whole 'officialdom' arguement. But if the team continues taking sides in a deeply divided province, then the team will have to acept that there are consequences.

First and last word on this, as it gets tedious debating with people who just refuse to accept any other point of view (e.g. that nationalists reject everything to do with the north or the border... ).

[David]

well, ignoring whatever republicans may think, and my suspicion that pablo may have really been on a wind up, you're not classed as a country in the United Kingdom, you're classed as a province.
And I don't think anyone denies you're entitled to a league but rather they think that a similar league structure to pretty much every other sport on the island would be mutually beneficial (although that would be disputed in terms of what N.I would provide and what they would expect).

In football terms, which is what we are talking after all, Northern Ireland is a country.

[dcfcsteve]

In football terms, which is what we are talking after all, Northern Ireland is a country.

In football terms, which is what we are tallking after all, Derry city is in the Republic. Or at least the city side is.

Glad to see you've accepted the final surrender of the protestant Jerusalem to the papish Free State hordes...

[Steve Bruce]

I can't speak for Belfast, but I know peopel who wear their NI top around Derry without harm or molestation. But then - you Blefast lot always have been a tad less civilised...

On the 'one sidedness issue, the fact that I have to spell this out for you (as indeed for every Linfield fan) shows that you're a lost cause and won't listen or accept the viewpoint anyway. But hey - it's a Friday and the sun is shining, so I'll give it just one wee try.

The Northern Ireland international team supposedly represents a deeply divided province. Yet it does so solely through the symbnolism of only one side of that divide. Whether that symbolism is currently official or not is irrelevant, as it is still divisive. And I note that the other 'home nations' in the UK seem happy using theirt own anthems and flags, yet good old Norn Iron feels it essential to continue paying homage to the UK as a whole, ratehr than it's own weee patch of it. Even the English will eventually ditch GSTQ...

If the IFA/NI team are serious about being a team for the whole province, then they should use symbolism that would be acceptable (or at least, not alienating to) the whole province.

If that isn't acceptable to the IFA - fine. But then stop the pretense. Openly admit that the NI team intends to continue using the symbolism of only one community (whether it's 'official' or not is irrelevant), admit and accept that this will therefore cost the team Catholic/nationalist support, and then accept the enusing consequences when the team/IFA goes looking for political support, funding etc.

No doubt you'll hide behind the whole 'officialdom' arguement. But if the team continues taking sides in a deeply divided province, then the team will have to acept that there are consequences.

First and last word on this, as it gets tedious debating with people who just refuse to accept any other point of view (e.g. that nationalists reject everything to do with the north or the border... ).

We will have to agree to disagree. This is Northern Ireland and our national anthem is GSTQ, our official flag is the Union Flag. It is fact and if people don't like that, well that's there look out. We shouldn't have to lose our identity because of a minority of narrow minded people who would rather belong to a different country.

Also your generalisation of linfield supporters is a moronic generalisation. Maybe I could say the same about Derry City supporters, but I have more class than to make that sort of generalisation.

[Steve Bruce]

In football terms, which is what we are tallking after all, Derry city is in the Republic. Or at least the city side is.

Glad to see you've accepted the final surrender of the protestant Jerusalem to the papish Free State hordes...

Hmm not it's not. You are a Northern Ireland side playing in a foreign league LOI league.

Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are all still classed as Welsh teams, who are playing in the English league

[lofty9]

Hmm not it's not. You are a Northern Ireland side playing in a foreign league LOI league.

Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are all still classed as Welsh teams, who are playing in the English league

Whilst we are classed as an Irish team playing in an Irish league.

[Steve Bruce]

Whilst we are classed as an Irish team playing in an Irish league.

I'll give you that, no point in splitting hairs

[dcfcsteve]

Also your generalisation of linfield supporters is a moronic generalisation. Maybe I could say the same about Derry City supporters, but I have more class than to make that sort of generalisation.

A reall class act indeed...! But sadly, lacking in enough class to not generalise that all Nationalists detest the border and anything that represents the north....

I've yet to meet a Linfield fan who doesn't take your view re the NI team and symbolism. And I've had enough debates with them on here and on ILF to be allowed to make such a generalisation. Or are you telling me that most Linfield fans wouldn't think that way.....?

[GavinZac]

Do you want me to show you a BBC webpage that shows the story about a guy who claimed to be a doctor and made over 3000 entries on Wikipedia without being detected.

No, believe me, as an active participant in Wikipedia I know all about it. He assumed the identity of a professor, and he was an admin, someone who basically performs the duties of a moderator on here, going around checking flagged articles and locking, reverting or deleting them. there are a couple of hundred admins and they themselves are policed by super-admins. Whilst the guy styled himself as a professor, I fail to see how that in any way impacts on Wikipedia since he was not an active editor and cannot make any claims without sources, and I fail to see how he can make over 3000 "entries" (i must be around a similar figure at this stage) without being detected if there are stories about him on BBC! The guy was basically rumbled about the facade he had put on, and the media knowing little or nothing about the situation ran it on a slow news day.

In any case this is pointless as I'm not exactly a hardcore republican myself, I just think that dividing soccer on the island simply because of a rubbish song or a rag on a pole is of benefit to nobody.

[Dassa]

Not all NI fans have the same opinion regarding the anthem issue.
Im a NI fan and believe that the IFA should remove GSTQ as the anthem. We are not representing the UK so should not play the UK anthem. I also believe that the soldier song should be removed at Ireland rugby games. The team are not the ROI and shouldnt play the ROI anthem.

As for IL and EL. I believe that teams like portadown and Glentoran have done our league a huge injustice with their attitude to the setanta.

[dcfcsteve]

Not all NI fans have the same opinion regarding the anthem issue.
Im a NI fan and believe that the IFA should remove GSTQ as the anthem. We are not representing the UK so should not play the UK anthem. I also believe that the soldier song should be removed at Ireland rugby games. The team are not the ROI and shouldnt play the ROI anthem.

Agree 100%.

This is a fair and, indeed, sensible attitude to take. Which is probably why so many people in the north oppose it...