dcfcsteve and Steve Bruce argue which league is better

[EireBadBoy]

for a part-time outfit.

We know, jaysus, we buckin' know!!!!

[Steve Bruce]

Indeed. the Ulster senior League should amalgamate with the main league. It makes sense.

The Ulster Senior League? http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugb...sh/4269830.stm

Main League?
Can't find anything on this league.

Also I do not see how amalgamating a Rugby Union league into this Main league you talk of would end the debate on how Portadown and Dungannon would do in an All Island League.

[Steve Bruce]

Well we could always test it out in some sort of league

To be serious for a moment.

I would be more than happy to test it out in some sort of league, providing there is a safe guard that protects my national team Northern Ireland. I do not want an all island national team like there is in rugby. With teh rugby team I do not feel part of it, I feel it is a Republic of Ireland team. Yes there may be Ulster players in it, but until the national anthems of both countries are played. Or no national anthems, I do not see how some one like myself, a Northern Ireland Unionist/British person could feel part of a team who stands to the national anthem of the Republic.

I do not mean to make this political, I have no problem with Irish people, I just do not see myself as one of them and I do not feel I could support such a team.

This is not bigoted, it is part of my cultural make up and I will not apollogise for it either. I respect other peoples backgrounds and political beliefs. I hope I get the same sort of respect back, regardless if you agree or not.

[OneRedArmy]

To be serious for a moment.

I would be more than happy to test it out in some sort of league, providing there is a safe guard that protects my national team Northern Ireland. I do not want an all island national team like there is in rugby. With teh rugby team I do not feel part of it, I feel it is a Republic of Ireland team. Yes there may be Ulster players in it, but until the national anthems of both countries are played. Or no national anthems, I do not see how some one like myself, a Northern Ireland Unionist/British person could feel part of a team who stands to the national anthem of the Republic.

I do not mean to make this political, I have no problem with Irish people, I just do not see myself as one of them and I do not feel I could support such a team.

This is not bigoted, it is part of my cultural make up and I will not apollogise for it either. I respect other peoples backgrounds and political beliefs. I hope I get the same sort of respect back, regardless if you agree or not.

If you'd done any research you'd realise the rugby teams anthem is Ireland's Call. The Irish anthem is only played at home internationals in Ireland as a courtesy to the hosts.

When Ireland play their pre-World Cup warm-up in Ravenhill, the two anthems SHOULD be Ireland's Call (the Irish Rugby anthem) and GSTQ. I say should because there is an element of doubt over this, but its clear in official documents that this is the intention.

Thats why only Ireland's Call is played at away matches.

Not sure if that changes your view, suspect not.....

[dcfcsteve]

To be serious for a moment.

I would be more than happy to test it out in some sort of league, providing there is a safe guard that protects my national team Northern Ireland. I do not want an all island national team like there is in rugby. With teh rugby team I do not feel part of it, I feel it is a Republic of Ireland team. Yes there may be Ulster players in it, but until the national anthems of both countries are played. Or no national anthems, I do not see how some one like myself, a Northern Ireland Unionist/British person could feel part of a team who stands to the national anthem of the Republic.

I do not mean to make this political, I have no problem with Irish people, I just do not see myself as one of them and I do not feel I could support such a team.

This is not bigoted, it is part of my cultural make up and I will not apollogise for it either. I respect other peoples backgrounds and political beliefs. I hope I get the same sort of respect back, regardless if you agree or not.

Ignoring the fact that you're wrong on the anthems issue, this suggest you may therefore also understand why many Catholics/Nationalists don't support the NI football team, with it's one-sided anthems and symbols (i.e. not even an attempt at a 'neutral' song liek Ireland's Call).

Now - if you could just explain it to the other Linfield fans on here who refuse to accept it is as an issue, and claim tagdhs wouldn't support the wee north no mater what was done.....

[Steve Bruce]

If you'd done any research you'd realise the rugby teams anthem is Ireland's Call. The Irish anthem is only played at home internationals in Ireland as a courtesy to the hosts.

When Ireland play their pre-World Cup warm-up in Ravenhill, the two anthems SHOULD be Ireland's Call (the Irish Rugby anthem) and GSTQ. I say should because there is an element of doubt over this, but its clear in official documents that this is the intention.

Thats why only Ireland's Call is played at away matches.

Not sure if that changes your view, suspect not.....

I'm aware of why the Soldier song is played and it still doesn't make it right in my eyes considering the Rugby team is supposed to be for all people on this island. So national anthems outside Irelands call(which I have no problems with) should be left out.

I also do not think GSOQ will be played if Ireland ever did play in Northern Ireland. That remains to be seen and again, I do not believe it should be as it then excludes the Irish Nationalists.

[Steve Bruce]

Ignoring the fact that you're wrong on the anthems issue, this suggest you may therefore also understand why many Catholics/Nationalists don't support the NI football team, with it's one-sided anthems and symbols (i.e. not even an attempt at a 'neutral' song liek Ireland's Call).

Now - if you could just explain it to the other Linfield fans on here who refuse to accept it is as an issue, and claim tagdhs wouldn't support the wee north no mater what was done.....

I don't expect any Irish or Northern Ireland Nationalist to support Northern Ireland. I understand that nationalists in Northern Ireland do not want to recognise the border and they wont support a team that promotes the fact there is a border.

Also I the national anthem thing, i did not address myself properly but have answered in my last post.

[Pablo]

I'm aware of why the Soldier song is played and it still doesn't make it right in my eyes considering the Rugby team is supposed to be for all people on this island. So national anthems outside Irelands call(which I have no problems with) should be left out.

I also do not think GSOQ will be played if Ireland ever did play in Northern Ireland. That remains to be seen and again, I do not believe it should be as it then excludes the Irish Nationalists.

Christ they made up that abomination Irelands call to keep ye happy, are you never satisfied!

That somg is the greatest affliction every imposed on us in 800 years

[Steve Bruce]

Christ they made up that abomination Irelands call to keep ye happy, are you never satisfied!

That somg is the greatest affliction every imposed on us in 800 years

If they played the two countries national anthems one after another then we would be satisfied

Anyways, there is no point debating this as it is totally off topic and it is going to serve no purpose at all.

Lets get back to

[Dodge]

That somg is the greatest affliction every imposed on us in 800 years

and by a fecking derry man. No wonder dcfcsteve is so angry!

[dcfcsteve]

I don't expect any Irish or Northern Ireland Nationalist to support Northern Ireland. I understand that nationalists in Northern Ireland do not want to recognise the border and they wont support a team that promotes the fact there is a border.

A hugely sweeping generalisation there Steve. This nonesensical lie that Nationalists won't support the NI team needs to be quashed, and you also need to differentiate between nationalists and militant Republicans.

Nationalists have the perfectly justifiable political aspiration of a United Ireland. However - that doesn't mean they pretend the border doesn't exist, or refuse to recognise anything to do with the north. Only the very small minority of militant Republicans would have nothing to do with northern institutions. The rest of the nationalist world just gets on with life as it currently is in the north (incl, for many, folowing the NI team and Irish League teams) - all the while hoping that someday the constitutional situation will change. Hence why you have hundreds of thousands of nationalists happy to participate in partitionist institutions and activities in the meantime - like Westminster and Assembly elections, for example.

I know a number of Northern Irish nationalists who actively support the Northern Ireland football team (incl the guy with the Derry City FC NI Supporters Club banner), and some are members of this forum. I know of other nationalists who would be curious enough about the team to go to games (incl myself), but feel ostracised by its one-sided symbolism. For none of those people does your sweeping generalisation of refusing to recognise anything to do with the north/border apply.

Most nationalists just accept and get on with life as it currently is, all the while retaining the political hope that it will some day change. That does not preclude them from supporting the NI football team - no more than supporting the Scotttish rugby team would mean you'd like to see the UK dissolved. And no more than a northern protestant is prevented form supporting the Irish rugby team if they have the justifiable political aspiration of partition continuing.

At least we're agreed on the polarising impact of the anthem at NI games.

[David]

Indeed. the Ulster senior League should amalgamate with the main league. It makes sense.

And it is arrogance like this that winds people up. We, as a country, are entitled to our own league in the same way that you or any other country is.

[David]

I'm aware of why the Soldier song is played and it still doesn't make it right in my eyes considering the Rugby team is supposed to be for all people on this island. So national anthems outside Irelands call(which I have no problems with) should be left out.

I also do not think GSOQ will be played if Ireland ever did play in Northern Ireland. That remains to be seen and again, I do not believe it should be as it then excludes the Irish Nationalists.

I think Ireland played at Ravenhill recently and refused to play GSTQ for the hosts.

[OneRedArmy]

I think Ireland played at Ravenhill recently and refused to play GSTQ for the hosts.

Its a bit much asking them to be rugby players and musicians...

PS Wasn't that the A match vs England Saxons in February where the local fans supported England? Must have been because Ireland didn't play GSTQ.....

[GavinZac]

And it is arrogance like this that winds people up. We, as a country, are entitled to our own league in the same way that you or any other country is.

well, ignoring whatever republicans may think, and my suspicion that pablo may have really been on a wind up, you're not classed as a country in the United Kingdom, you're classed as a province.
And I don't think anyone denies you're entitled to a league but rather they think that a similar league structure to pretty much every other sport on the island would be mutually beneficial (although that would be disputed in terms of what N.I would provide and what they would expect).

[Steve Bruce]

well, ignoring whatever republicans may think, and my suspicion that pablo may have really been on a wind up, you're not classed as a country in the United Kingdom, you're classed as a province.
And I don't think anyone denies you're entitled to a league but rather they think that a similar league structure to pretty much every other sport on the island would be mutually beneficial (although that would be disputed in terms of what N.I would provide and what they would expect).

To be fair, Wikipedia isn't exactly the most reliable source for information. Anyone could change the details of any article.

[Steve Bruce]

A hugely sweeping generalisation there Steve. This nonesensical lie that Nationalists won't support the NI team needs to be quashed, and you also need to differentiate between nationalists and militant Republicans.

Nationalists have the perfectly justifiable political aspiration of a United Ireland. However - that doesn't mean they pretend the border doesn't exist, or refuse to recognise anything to do with the north. Only the very small minority of militant Republicans would have nothing to do with northern institutions. The rest of the nationalist world just gets on with life as it currently is in the north (incl, for many, folowing the NI team and Irish League teams) - all the while hoping that someday the constitutional situation will change. Hence why you have hundreds of thousands of nationalists happy to participate in partitionist institutions and activities in the meantime - like Westminster and Assembly elections, for example.

I know a number of Northern Irish nationalists who actively support the Northern Ireland football team (incl the guy with the Derry City FC NI Supporters Club banner), and some are members of this forum. I know of other nationalists who would be curious enough about the team to go to games (incl myself), but feel ostracised by its one-sided symbolism. For none of those people does your sweeping generalisation of refusing to recognise anything to do with the north/border apply.

Most nationalists just accept and get on with life as it currently is, all the while retaining the political hope that it will some day change. That does not preclude them from supporting the NI football team - no more than supporting the Scotttish rugby team would mean you'd like to see the UK dissolved. And no more than a northern protestant is prevented form supporting the Irish rugby team if they have the justifiable political aspiration of partition continuing.

At least we're agreed on the polarising impact of the anthem at NI games.

You say it is a minority. If I went into ANY nationalist area in Belfast with my Northern Ireland top on, I would be chased out of the area.

Also you talk about this one sidedness. Of course it is, just like any other country in the world, the national team displays it's own flag and plays it's own national anthem.

There's no sectarianism at the game anymore though. So I don't know what else you expect?

[bigmac]

Well we could always test it out in some sort of league

I would be more than happy to test it out in some sort of league,

Do the group stages of the Setanta Cup not count?

[GavinZac]

To be fair, Wikipedia isn't exactly the most reliable source for information. Anyone could change the details of any article.

That old doozy

Wikipedia isn't a source, its an encyclopedia, which is why every statement on it must be backed up by a source. If you feel something is incorrect and have a source to back it up, you can edit it. Anything without a source and flagged as such is usually deleted in a few days. Feel free to bring your complaint to the discussion page or by simply flagging it as "citation needed".

[Steve Bruce]

That old doozy

Wikipedia isn't a source, its an encyclopedia, which is why every statement on it must be backed up by a source. If you feel something is incorrect and have a source to back it up, you can edit it. Anything without a source and flagged as such is usually deleted in a few days. Feel free to bring your complaint to the discussion page or by simply flagging it as "citation needed".

Do you want me to show you a BBC webpage that shows the story about a guy who claimed to be a doctor and made over 3000 entries on Wikipedia without being detected.

Also if search for all different sources on the net. Some don't even class Scotland, Wales or England countries either but instead class the United Kingdom as a country. Which Northern Ireland belongs to.

Which is probably the most accurate as Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England are all regions of the United Kingdom.