Match Programmes

**The Donie Forde** · 12/02/2003, 11:48 AM

Thanks for getting back, dalo!

i do feel the look and feel of the programme is a small bit tired.

In fairness, they added an extra bit of colour this season + changed the format a bit too

1. the manager should have a column in the programme as well as BL. the failure of gunther to do this was shocking

Would a manager's bit add anything, do you think? Would it not just be clich� upon clich�?

2. less anaylsis of the boys in green.

I think a lot of people like to get another view of the national team scene, other than the newspapers'

perhaps a wider look at how the league race is faring' not just the bohs of the world but the athlones as well

Yeah, that's fair enough...

3. print headings and so on -appearance needs to be looked at all times. any graphic design student would do the job at half the price and with twice the flair

If you say so, but is that a big problem for prog buyers/non-buyers?

4. what about a players piece where by a player tells us every week about his routine etc

Fairly boring by week 2, assuming they'll all have similar routines...but I see what you're getting at...

5. tell us what city are doing to promote themsleves as a genuine club of the citizens of cork- this is vital. we should see ourselves as the team of the city and of the people

Agreed

6. maybe even a slightly more fanzine approach to the programme. this can be acheived without undermining the intregity of the club and the programme. a interview with city�s more well known and less well known fans' i am sure creedon and son would like to write a few words

Pandering to already well-inflated egos?...

7. more focus on the underage teams and the players

U21s good coverage this season, U17s & 18s - nothing. Good point.

8. a nostaglia piece on games past written from the perspective of fans who were there. a piece on famous players. we have a rich soccer past- promote it

City progs have a fairly good record in that area, I'd say, tho maybe not the season just gone

9. more definite focus on the marketing of the club- aim higher than tony�s fine clothing

More a club than programme issue?

10. promote all the items that in their own way promote the club www.foot.ie, 4-5-1- together we are stronger.

I can see the club having a prob with promoting 451...

11. more emphasis on promoting qulaity merchandise.

Yeah, could be better

Thanks, dalo!

Donie

**FourFiveOne** · 12/02/2003, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by The Donie Forde
Finally, as raised in my initial post, I stated that money raised by the programme goes directly to the club - where does money raised by fanzine sales go?

'TDF', you should know as well as anyone how expensive it is to print anything. That is a monthly cost along with others.

You may also have noticed that FourFiveOne have a 20 foot banner hanging at the back of the Shed. You may remember a free issue for the televised Derry City game the season before last. The intention there was the create a 'Sea of Red' by giving out a free red fanzine. It didn't work very well but it cost money. We also spent a lot of money last season on flares and smoke, which were used throughout the season. Unless you have been under a rock for the last 2 months you'll know that FourFiveOne are currently putting all their efforts and funds into getting three Serie A style flags for the start of next season. We already have purchased two large drums from TIFO.

Two of the main reasons the fanzine was set up was:
1. to give ordinary City fans a voice
2. to try and create a better atmosphere at the Cross from any money raised (hence the flares, smoke, banners, flags etc.)

In response to claims from you 'TDF', and also earlier from 'dalo' that FourFiveOne does not represent the views of the City supporters (and that it's only the views of the FourFiveOne lads) I would point out that 75% of each months fanzine is made from articles and gags submitted by contributors that are not involved with the fanzine. 99% of articles that are submitted (provided they are not OTT) are printed.

FourFiveOne has recently taken a lot of criticism for it's anti-Murphy tone but we keep pointing out that in the two years that FourFiveOne has existed we have only ever received ONE article standing up for Liam Murphy. And it was printed.

Interestingly we have not yet recieved an article from 'dalo' or, to the best of my knowledge, 'The Donie Forde'.

Aside: we will stop taking votes on the BEST 3 BIG FLAGS at 6pm today. Next step is to get the material and sew 'em together!

**The Donie Forde** · 12/02/2003, 12:38 PM

In response to claims from you, and also earlier from 'dalo' that FourFiveOne does not represent the views of the City supporters (and that it's only the views of the FourFiveOne lads)

And I said that...where? I think you have confused me with another poster, I never suggested that. Ah, facts or rumours

Obviously, printing costs - never suggested otherwise. My sole point there is that the club benefits from the programme, it does not from the fanzine...maybe it's just something people should bear in mind. Like, personally, I'm not pushed if you're buying beer with it, or paying for petrol on away trips...just stating that, at the end of the day, there is no financial return for the club.

Why get sarcastic with me? I've already pointed out I don't have a beef with 451...why get all defensive about it?

I realise you have a 'big flag fund' and that you tried other things to improve the atmosphere...fair play.

I'm not your enemy here, I'm sussing feedback on the programme front.

And, BTW, the programme regularly accepts articles from fans also...

Sl�n,

Donie

**The Donie Forde** · 12/02/2003, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by Conor74
75% submitted by those not involved with the fanzine? That would suggest that the fanzine really is the voice of City fans, and not merely of Noelle and advertisiers. How would that compare with the programme there, TDF?

There was a list of programme contributors in the last programme v UCD. Read it and ask yourself how many of those are involved with the programme, or even CCFC. Off the top of my head I'd give it 75%...

The voice of the fans - self proclaimed voice of the fans, I can live with. It's just a little rich to insist that you are when you hardly received a mandate...

And before you ask, no the programme doesn't claim to represent tha fans but it is there for them. Fans are welcome to contribute, assuming what they have to contribute is constructive/coherent, balanced and not littered with invective.

There is a place here for the programme AND the fanzine - I have never suggested otherwise, and I would be genuinely disappointed if 451 ceased to exist. I don't agree with everything that's in it, but it has its plusses...

The Donie Forde

**dalo** · 12/02/2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by FourFiveOne
Gerry, you should know as well as anyone how expensive it is to print anything. That is a monthly cost along with others.

You may also have noticed that FourFiveOne have a 20 foot banner hanging at the back of the Shed. You may remember a free issue for the televised Derry City game the season before last. The intention there was the create a 'Sea of Red' by giving out a free red fanzine. It didn't work very well but it cost money. We also spent a lot of money last season on flares and smoke, which were used throughout the season. Unless you have been under a rock for the last 2 months you'll know that FourFiveOne are currently putting all their efforts and funds into getting three Serie A style flags for the start of next season. We already have purchased two large drums from TIFO.

Two of the main reasons the fanzine was set up was:
1. to give ordinary City fans a voice
2. to try and create a better atmosphere at the Cross from any money raised (hence the flares, smoke, banners, flags etc.)

In response to claims from you Gerry, and also earlier from 'dalo' that FourFiveOne does not represent the views of the City supporters (and that it's only the views of the FourFiveOne lads) I would point out that 75% of each months fanzine is made from articles and gags submitted by contributors that are not involved with the fanzine. 99% of articles that are submitted (provided they are not OTT) are printed.

FourFiveOne has recently taken a lot of criticism for it's anti-Murphy tone but we keep pointing out that in the two years that FourFiveOne has existed we have only ever received ONE article standing up for Liam Murphy. And it was printed.

Interestingly we have not yet recieved an article from 'dalo' or, to the best of my knowledge, 'The Donie Forde'.

Aside: we will stop taking votes on the BEST 3 BIG FLAGS at 6pm today. Next step is to get the material and sew 'em together!

eh man chill out don't be so Gerard Houllier (defensive) I have nothing against 4-5-1. jesus I even buy it on a regular basis and i have added one or two very small contributions to it.

why should I contribute to it on a large scale? if I buy it surely I am entitled to a opinion- anyway if I did write something surely that helps u more than me. Celver ploy!!!!

No i don't believe it is representive of city fans though the views of it's contributors are generally representive of the mag. there is a difference you know. the difference of the city programme and yours is that the city programme represents the reality of the club yours represents a type of reality.

still I am all in favour of the fanzine - best of luck to ye

**niamh** · 12/02/2003, 2:48 PM

An independent voice is needed for all things and for Cork City it is the voice of the fanzine.

The people involved are genuine supporters of the club who would love nothing better than to have only good things, and good days to write about, but are willing to point out the faults as they see it, in order that things might improve.

I would hate to see either the programme or the fanzine stop. I think both are necessary. It is important that fans have an arena to air their views but it is also important that the club have such a medium.

**The Donie Forde** · 12/02/2003, 3:06 PM

Originally posted by Conor74
You're talking about my articles, aren't you.

Ahhh ya old sweet talker ya.

Well, naturally, Conor - what else would it be?

Donie

**The Donie Forde** · 12/02/2003, 3:08 PM

Originally posted by niamh
An independent voice is needed for all things and for Cork City it is the voice of the fanzine.

The people involved are genuine supporters of the club who would love nothing better than to have only good things, and good days to write about, but are willing to point out the faults as they see it, in order that things might improve.

I would hate to see either the programme or the fanzine stop. I think both are necessary. It is important that fans have an arena to air their views but it is also important that the club have such a medium.

Words of wisdom, Niamh, words of wisdom.

Donie

**Colm** · 12/02/2003, 5:16 PM

As a few people have already suggested, I too believe that both the programme and the fanzine serve a place.

TDF, you said earlier that people who are "pro fanzine" are "anti programme". I would strongly disagree with that sentiment, I in fact would believe the opposite to be true. I think that most of the people who buy the zine would also buy the programme and vice versa.

**A face** · 12/02/2003, 5:27 PM

Fair play for you the Donie Ford. You have done well in this debate and kept the head, i mean it must be fustrating for you, as you seem to have you back up over there actually being a fanzine, maybe cos it affects your sales. Either way you have fought your corner, we'll give you that.

C'mon City !!

**Real ale Madrid** · 12/02/2003, 5:38 PM

Just a thought, but maybe we could have a poll,

Which is the most interesting read, the programme or the fanzine?

IMO a programme is a completly different document to a fanzine, a programme's primary function is to inform while the fanzine is really there to entertain and give a voice. THey are completly different so they should by no means be competing with each other but COMLIMENTING each other - just another thought!

**The Donie Forde** · 13/02/2003, 9:47 AM

Originally posted by Colm
[B

TDF, you said earlier that people who are "pro fanzine" are "anti programme". I would strongly disagree with that sentiment, I in fact would believe the opposite to be true. I think that most of the people who buy the zine would also buy the programme and vice versa. [/B]

To be precise, Colm, I didn't state pro fanzine people were anti programme. I did put a '?' in front of it. I did that because it would appear, to me at least, that there is a body of opinion there among fanzine people that the prog isn't worth the paper it's printed on...possibly because they simply don't buy it yet still strongly maintain it's crap.
Of course, I accept the opposite may also be true with certain programme buyers.
I buy 451 every issue, and I *have* contributed to NMPP in the past...
I don't have a problem at all with fanzines, honestly - I like that they bring a little extra to match days, just as the prog does.
What bugs me are people ready to slate the programme without actually basing their criticism on fact, pretty much like people slam the NL without ever actually going to games. Same argument. I would just like to encourage fans who generally don't get a programme to give it a bash next season. That is why I started the thread trying to find out what the general view of it was; how it could be improved, what people were happy with in it etc. I wasn't interested in a prog/zine debate at all...

I'm still interested to hear genuine criticisms and suggestions. I can't guarantee that any idea thrown on the table here will end up in the programme, but I can guarantee it will be given fair consideration.

Donie

**The Donie Forde** · 13/02/2003, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Real ale Madrid
Just a thought, but maybe we could have a poll,

Which is the most interesting read, the programme or the fanzine?

IMO a programme is a completly different document to a fanzine, a programme's primary function is to inform while the fanzine is really there to entertain and give a voice. THey are completly different so they should by no means be competing with each other but COMLIMENTING each other - just another thought!

I can imagine how that poll might turn out, but fire ahead if you want

I agree that you are dealing with two different types of production here. However, I would disagree with you when you suggest the programme roles is confined to merely informing, that's an over simplification. Informing the fans, of course, is a very important part of the programme's function, but even that needs improving IMO.

That said, I suggest that a well-written and balanced article on a serious topic on Irish football can be entertaining. I believe several of the stronger pieces were at least on a par with stuff in the general press on the same subjects...so the standard is quite good (says he modestly!), not that it, too, couldn't be improved.
Also, there were several very light/humerous/ironic articles run over the course of the season. I'd say the flavour of the programme is quite broad at this point, considering that it has to appeal to all age groups if it is to serve all of the fans, and still remain within the libel limits. I even recall a very tongue-in-cheek piece early on that drew tut-tuts on this board because of its tone...

Donie

**The Donie Forde** · 13/02/2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by A face
Fair play for you the Donie Ford. You have done well in this debate and kept the head, i mean it must be fustrating for you, as you seem to have you back up over there actually being a fanzine, maybe cos it affects your sales. Either way you have fought your corner, we'll give you that.

C'mon City !!

For the record, A face, I genuinely don't have a problem with the fanzine. I may not always agree with its content, but I still buy it and enjoy it.
Just to be clear, don't ya know.

Donie

**dalo** · 13/02/2003, 2:55 PM

Originally posted by The Donie Forde

I agree that you are dealing with two different types of remain within the libel limits. I even recall a very tongue-in-cheek piece early on that drew tut-tuts on this board because of its tone...

Donie

well I do rememeber a quite funny comment in the programme atthe time of the shels game taking the m**k out of foot.ie. i laughed

as i said the fanzine is ok and there is a place for it, the programme however takes priority

**Gary** · 13/02/2003, 5:16 PM

How and why does the programme take priority? I dont get it. the two of ye are going on extolling the virtues of the programme, while rubbishing the zine.

One thing Ill say on the matter is this, the programme has to be done, and it is a good read, but can be a bit tedious with fact fact boring on the fence. Was there EVER a critical comment (an opinion) in the programme?

As for the fanzine, while everyone will admit it could be better, i reckon most people would admit that its a breath of fresh air, as it is the only medium by which an opinion (whether pro or anti club/mngt/ player etc.) is given. I mean look at Spillane. The guy is afraid to move off the fence for fear of upsetting one of the lads.

One question to DALO, what would you rate as the best fanzine in the country? Ive got a few STIG, Red Inc, One F and DTTR, and i would say that 451 is much better than all of them. Ive also got a few from UK and 451 has a long way to go.

In conclusion, i feel both are doing a very good job. In fact i was surprised to see Shams' programme rated better than ours.

**dalo** · 14/02/2003, 7:49 AM

Originally posted by GWA

. Ive also got a few from UK and 451 has a long way to go.

.

couldn�t have said it better myself

no i think the fanzine is good and does serve a outlet as shown by it�s sales. i am not rubbishing the fanzine at all. just can�t understand why people get so *****ly when you make any critical observation of it' as I said i think the fanzine has it�s place and fair play to it but the function of the match programme is possibly a lot more important to both fans and club

**jofyisgod** · 17/02/2003, 7:29 PM

Why the big fuss?If u dont li,e the feckin fanzine, there is a simple answer-DONT BUY IT! ( i recommend u do tho-its very funny!)
Peter

**The Donie Forde** · 18/02/2003, 9:28 AM

Originally posted by jofyisgod
Why the big fuss?If u dont li,e the feckin fanzine, there is a simple answer-DONT BUY IT! ( i recommend u do tho-its very funny!)
Peter

Fuss, what fuss? Just wanna get people's views on the programme !
Comments still welcome but would appreciate if they were constructive...

Donie

**jofyisgod** · 19/02/2003, 5:43 PM

Very sorry tdf...really.
Well-heres my constructive comment.The program isnt bad but i think that it could do with more player info and interviews as i couldnt care less about Noelles bit. Maybe a section on great City players would be good. The fanzine is also very good. It is sooo funny and the songs section is a good idea.I get them both, so i'm not complaining about either.
Peter