Welsh Cup Final

[Schumi]

But since you've now got this 'regional' theory going, aren't Kazakhstan and Lithuania relatively close? Geography is not my strongest point but I'm fairly sure those two countries are fairly closely situated.

They're not, they're at opposite ends of the former USSR. There must be about 2,000 km between them at their nearest points and Kazakhstan is huge.

[dcfcsteve]

Comparing Kazakhstan to Ireland was just something I did to refute your original claim.

But since you've now got this 'regional' theory going, aren't Kazakhstan and Lithuania relatively close? Geography is not my strongest point but I'm fairly sure those two countries are fairly closely situated.

I'll leave you to think about that one,

Regionalising it is important to even out economic imbalances. A crowd of 100,000 would probably only generate the same income in Kazakhstan as a crowd of 2,000 in Ireland ! - a dirt-poor effectively Asian country. To then compare it to Ireland is even furtehr removed.

Oh - and Lithuania and Kazakhstan are close. About as close as Poland and Spain.

I'll leave you to think about that one.....

in the mean time, you put Ireland in the same geographical cluster as England yet say that crowds have no affect on the standards in both those countries. Why? We can agree that the best League of Ireland players end up in England and certainly from what I've heard Ireland is being scouted heavily by English clubs, and those clubs have the financial muscle to take the best players from Irish clubs.

You say it's not about individual clubs, but overall levels of support.

Here's a brief run-down of the approximate average levels of support in each of the UK and Ireland's leagues.

English Premiership-c. 35,000
English Championship-c. 15,000
Scottish Premiership-c. 10,000
English League One-c. 6,000
English League Two-c. 2,500
Scottish Division 1-c. 1,500
League of Ireland Premier Division-c. 1,500
English Conference-c. 1,200
Scottish Division 2-c. 750
Irish League Premier Divison- ? (would guess around 750-no official figures)
Welsh Premier League- c. 300
Scottish Division 3- c. 300

Going on that and by your theory you'd expect the following to be true:

-The Scottish Division 1 and the League of Ireland Premier Division are roughly on par. Derry v Gretna anyone?
-The League of Ireland Premier Division is about 5 times superior to the Welsh Premier League. Carmarthen Town anyone?
-The Irish League is 1.5 times inferior to the Conference. That wouldn't be the case judging on the friendly the two sides played last month. It finished IL 3, Conference 1, for the record.
-The Championship is 1.5 times better than the Scottish Premiership in overall quality. Possibly true but certainly debateable.

Not at all. I pointed out that the height of the footballing food chain in each country is a big issue too. Anyone good in Scottish Division 1 gets sucked into the SPL. This happens in Ireland with players leaving the Premier for England/Scotland, but not to the same extent and frequency for obvious reasons of geography and ease of noticing players.

And to suggest Derry and Gretna were on a par last year.......!

As a better comparison perhaps - look at the inter-league friendly tournament played every year. Thev English Conference sends a team, the Welsh Premier League sends a team, and the Eircom League send its U21 players over. I'm not saying that that reflects the levels of each, but I doubt those involved in the tournament would do that if it had no value at all (though someoen coudl do with telling the Scots that.... )

Anyways - we'll have to agree to differ on this I suspect. I'm still keen to make a few WPL games next season, so will be in a better position to comment after then.

[Pablo]

Saw highlights on Sky!

Cant believe they played a Cup Final on a Ground No better than a Munster Senior League ground!

[dcfcsteve]

Saw highlights on Sky!

Cant believe they played a Cup Final on a Ground No better than a Munster Senior League ground!

With an attendnace of 976, what else could they have done ?

[Pablo]

With an attendnace of 976, what else could they have done ?

True. Just shocked at how poor it looked, from a facilities and standard point of view.

[Cymro]

Regionalising it is important to even out economic imbalances. A crowd of 100,000 would probably only generate the same income in Kazakhstan as a crowd of 2,000 in Ireland ! - a dirt-poor effectively Asian country. To then compare it to Ireland is even furtehr removed.

Oh - and Lithuania and Kazakhstan are close. About as close as Poland and Spain.

I'll leave you to think about that one.....




Not at all. I pointed out that the height of the footballing food chain in each country is a big issue too. Anyone good in Scottish Division 1 gets sucked into the SPL. This happens in Ireland with players leaving the Premier for England/Scotland, but not to the same extent and frequency for obvious reasons of geography and ease of noticing players.

And to suggest Derry and Gretna were on a par last year.......!

As a better comparison perhaps - look at the inter-league friendly tournament played every year. Thev English Conference sends a team, the Welsh Premier League sends a team, and the Eircom League send its U21 players over. I'm not saying that that reflects the levels of each, but I doubt those involved in the tournament would do that if it had no value at all (though someoen coudl do with telling the Scots that... )

Anyways - we'll have to agree to differ on this I suspect. I'm still keen to make a few WPL games next season, so will be in a better position to comment after then.

I suppose we will, however I maintain that the only accurate way of measuring leagues is when they actually come up against each other. Attendances don't even have that much of an affect on a club's income.

Also, re the Four Nations, the Eircom League's under 21s usually finish last. And I think when they entered a full senior EL team back in '03 Wales won it.

We should kick the EL out of it and invite the Irish League, or maybe a French non-league side. No point having Under-21s playing in it in my opinion, but ah well I'll enjoy seeing Wales successfully defend their crown this year.

[Cymro]

They're not, they're at opposite ends of the former USSR. There must be about 2,000 km between them at their nearest points and Kazakhstan is huge.

Well I did say geography wasn't my strong point.

[Paddyfield]

With an attendnace of 976, what else could they have done ?

Slightly off topic (okay, very much of topic...), what size crowds do they get for Cup Finals in Northern Ireland?

The average for the FAI Cup Final is around 15,000 I'd guess.

[dcfcsteve]

Slightly off topic (okay, very much of topic...), what size crowds do they get for Cup Finals in Northern Ireland?

The average for the FAI Cup Final is around 15,000 I'd guess.

I think about 9,000 on Saturday. Their overall crowds aren't great :

2006 : 12,000
2005 : 5,431
2004 : 8,300
2003 : 9,000
2002 : 11,129
2001 : 14,190
2000 : 8,355

It's hard to say what the overall FAI Cup average is, as the venue has impacted it in recent years. 15,000 would be a fair crowd to expect, regardless of who makes the final. The 2007 final had that crowd, despite biblical weather, and Longford v Waterford was also about that. Cork v Drogs was 25,000. Once you go back to the days of Tolka the crowds were obviously limited to 9,000 max.

[Schumi]

It's hard to say what the overall FAI Cup average is, as the venue has impacted it in recent years. 15,000 would be a fair crowd to expect, regardless of who makes the final. The 2007 final had that crowd, despite biblical weather, and Longford v Waterford was also about that.

I don't think Longford v Waterford was near that high. The lower East and West stands had a good bit of room in them and there weren't many (any?) people on the North and South terraces.

[Steve Bruce]

I think about 9,000 on Saturday. Their overall crowds aren't great :

2006 : 12,000
2005 : 5,431
2004 : 8,300
2003 : 9,000
2002 : 11,129
2001 : 14,190
2000 : 8,355

It's hard to say what the overall FAI Cup average is, as the venue has impacted it in recent years. 15,000 would be a fair crowd to expect, regardless of who makes the final. The 2007 final had that crowd, despite biblical weather, and Longford v Waterford was also about that. Cork v Drogs was 25,000. Once you go back to the days of Tolka the crowds were obviously limited to 9,000 max.

Well our problem is the same problems as yours will be at Tolka - Size of stadium.

This year there was a reported 7600(which is rubbish, look at my post in the NI section of this website and you will see why)

Anyway there was supposed to be 7600 - Linfield sold out there tickets, but could not get anymore due to no more capacity in the home stands to house them.

Last season there was 12,000 at the game. There where THOUSANDS turned away, the tickets where sold out nearly 2 weeks prior to the cup final and there was a big uproar about the tickets. We could have sold 3 times the amount of tickets. Again the capacity a big problem.

Portadown vs Larne - 5431 - Two country teams, with little following. There was many who disputed the low attendance though, 7000 was more widely accepted.

8300 for the Glentoran vs Coleraine - Again bigger stadium, Glentoran would have sold more tickets. Coleraine 7500 seats to fill but only filled 3000 of them. Glentoran filled there allocation - If we had a bigger capacity to house Glentoran then we would have had a bigger attendance.

9000 Glentoran vs Coleraine - Again Glentoran filled there allocation and would have filled there allocation another once over as they where going for the domestic cleansweep(thankfully lost)

Linfield vs Portadown 11,129 - Linfield again sold out there allocation well in advance and thousands where turned away again due to the capacity not being there to house them. Although there where many hundred that decided to turn up on the day and the Stewards/Police/IFA where forced to open the terracing to accomadate these fans that came up on the day.

Linfield vs Glentoran - 14,190 First big two final in 20 years. If we had a 35,000 seater it would have been sold out easily. But we don't.

So yes our attendances are not great, but that cannot be helped due to Windsor now being able to house either Linfield or Glentoran to the capacity of the support willing to go and Linfield or Glentoran are more frequently in the final than not.

I'm not wanting to get into an arguement but I am putting a bit of background behind the figures.

[dcfcsteve]

Well our problem is the same problems as yours will be at Tolka - Size of stadium.

This year there was a reported 7600(which is rubbish, look at my post in the NI section of this website and you will see why)

Anyway there was supposed to be 7600 - Linfield sold out there tickets, but could not get anymore due to no more capacity in the home stands to house them.

Last season there was 12,000 at the game. There where THOUSANDS turned away, the tickets where sold out nearly 2 weeks prior to the cup final and there was a big uproar about the tickets. We could have sold 3 times the amount of tickets. Again the capacity a big problem.

Portadown vs Larne - 5431 - Two country teams, with little following. There was many who disputed the low attendance though, 7000 was more widely accepted.

8300 for the Glentoran vs Coleraine - Again bigger stadium, Glentoran would have sold more tickets. Coleraine 7500 seats to fill but only filled 3000 of them. Glentoran filled there allocation - If we had a bigger capacity to house Glentoran then we would have had a bigger attendance.

9000 Glentoran vs Coleraine - Again Glentoran filled there allocation and would have filled there allocation another once over as they where going for the domestic cleansweep(thankfully lost)

Linfield vs Portadown 11,129 - Linfield again sold out there allocation well in advance and thousands where turned away again due to the capacity not being there to house them. Although there where many hundred that decided to turn up on the day and the Stewards/Police/IFA where forced to open the terracing to accomadate these fans that came up on the day.

Linfield vs Glentoran - 14,190 First big two final in 20 years. If we had a 35,000 seater it would have been sold out easily. But we don't.

So yes our attendances are not great, but that cannot be helped due to Windsor now being able to house either Linfield or Glentoran to the capacity of the support willing to go and Linfield or Glentoran are more frequently in the final than not.

I'm not wanting to get into an arguement but I am putting a bit of background behind the figures.

If, If, If..... !

We could say the same about Cork at any final. Or Derry or whoever. If we all played 'fantasy football final' we'd all need bigger venues (we're back at Tolka now)

You have to deal with what happens, not what you'd ideally like to happen in an ideal world.

Larne v Portadown in 2005, with its 5,000 attendance, would've been an absolute joke in a bigger stadium. It's very rare for the Big 2 to make a Cup Final together.

Anyways - why aren't Linfield allocated the end opposite the Kop, rather than leave it empty ? Is there no way to separate the crowd going in there from the away fans ?

[Steve Bruce]

If, If, If..... !

We could say the same about Cork at any final. Or Derry or whoever. If we all played 'fantasy football final' we'd all need bigger venues (we're back at Tolka now)

You have to deal with what happens, not what you'd ideally like to happen in an ideal world.

Larne v Portadown in 2005, with its 5,000 attendance, would've been an absolute joke in a bigger stadium. It's very rare for the Big 2 to make a Cup Final together.

Anyways - why aren't Linfield allocated the end opposite the Kop, rather than leave it empty ? Is there no way to separate the crowd going in there from the away fans ?

Your right the Portadown Larne would have been a joke.

Also the Big Two has been in the final twice in the last 6 years. And in the last load of years apart from once, there has been either a Linfield or Glentoran in the final.

The reason why the opposite end isn't allocated is because the stand is condemned and doesnt pass H&S standards. It only holds 600 anyway and would hardly curb the demand.

My point anyway, which you seemed to have missed is, that our attendances in the cup final by and large do not reflect the demand that there is for the game.

Is that unreasonable?

[dcfcsteve]

Your right the Portadown Larne would have been a joke.

Also the Big Two has been in the final twice in the last 6 years.

But also only twice in the last 20 years. Those additional 14 years of no Big 2 finals make that stat look rather less impressive...

My point anyway, which you seemed to have missed is, that our attendances in the cup final by and large do not reflect the demand that there is for the game.

Is that unreasonable?

No. But my point is that the figures don't support your assertion of there being frustrated demand.

Also - perhaps if Irish league fans were able to mingle together without fear of battering the head off each other then you'd be able to sell more tickets to games within the existing stadium. Mixing of home, away and neutrals happens in certain stands for the FAI Cup Final crowds.

Only when you've got 'house full' signs up consistently for your cup finals will it be justifided to make your claim. I don't buy into the whole 'if, buts and maybes' of what could be - only what is.

[Steve Bruce]

No. But my point is that the figures don't support your assertion of there being frustrated demand.

.

Right I'll do this really simple so you can understand.

We have a stadium that holds 14,000.

The ground is restricted to 8500 for cup final.

Linfield only get 5,500 tickets.

We sell out our 5,500 tickets and we are given NO MORE. We turn away many many people.

Tell me how this this isn't satisfying the demand for tickets? And by the way this is a regular occurance when both Linfield or Glentoran are in the final. We never get enough tickets.

[Steve Bruce]

But also only twice in the last 20 years. Those additional 14 years of no Big 2 finals make that stat look rather less impressive...

Unfortunately Northern Ireland has been in big conflict and crowds at IL games withered away. IF you look throughout history we where getting cup final crowds of 30,000. Then 1969 hit and it went right down to 9 or 10,000.

Also - perhaps if Irish league fans were able to mingle together without fear of battering the head off each other then you'd be able to sell more tickets to games within the existing stadium. Mixing of home, away and neutrals happens in certain stands for the FAI Cup Final crowds.

IL Fans mingle in nearly every game, just some games we don't. I did not see the sense in Dungannon and Linfield being seperated as we are always in with each other when we visit each others ground, without any hassle. But this is irrelevent to the point and to me it looks like a point scoring exercise for you.

Only when you've got 'house full' signs up consistently for your cup finals will it be justifided to make your claim. I don't buy into the whole 'if, buts and maybes' of what could be - only what is.

You are talking rubbish mate. Are you saying that when Man Utd visit Blackburn, there are only 25000 people in teh ground which holds 36,000. Are you saying there isn't a demand for tickets by Man Utd fans who have sold out there 4,000 tickets and have turned many thousands down? It is exactly the same as the cup final.

Also our cup finals consist of Linfield or Glentoran vs Opposition. That happens every season barring one or two who bucked the trend.

[dcfcsteve]

Right I'll do this really simple so you can understand.

We have a stadium that holds 14,000.

The ground is restricted to 8500 for cup final.

Windsor is clearly NOT restricted to 8,500 for Cup finals - as shown by the attendances in 2006, 2003, 2002, 2001.... . If the 8,500 limit is a new development for 2007, then it doesn't alter the fact that few cup finals sold out with the higher capacity prior to that.

Linfield only get 5,500 tickets.

We sell out our 5,500 tickets and we are given NO MORE. We turn away many many people.

Tell me how this this isn't satisfying the demand for tickets? And by the way this is a regular occurance when both Linfield or Glentoran are in the final. We never get enough tickets

I know the north is a one-team-league, but there are traditionally TWO teams in a cup final. In a segregated stadium, it doesn't matter if one team sell out their allocation - unless the other do it won't be a full house. I'm not sure what there isn't to understand here. Given the strict segregation at the Cup Final (which you agree seems to be unnecessary for some ties) then the fact that half the teams in the showpiece don't have enough demand will always result it a stadium that isn't full.

I'd suggest you direct your efforts towards having your club/the IFA address the segregation issue. You would probably have sold thousands more tickets for Saturday had this been addressed. For as long as you have segregation, there will more often than not be at least one team (two in 2005, for example) who don't have enough demand - hence not enough demand for a segregated cup final. Going into the whole 'what if' scenario is pointless whilst you have such strict segregation.

[dcfcsteve]

Unfortunately Northern Ireland has been in big conflict and crowds at IL games withered away. IF you look throughout history we where getting cup final crowds of 30,000. Then 1969 hit and it went right down to 9 or 10,000.

Deal with the present ! Who gives a fcuk about what happened almost 40 years ago - it's irrelevant ! Stop the whole 'ifs and buts and what could be or what should be' stuff, and deal with the facts of the present.

IL Fans mingle in nearly every game, just some games we don't. I did not see the sense in Dungannon and Linfield being seperated as we are always in with each other when we visit each others ground, without any hassle. But this is irrelevent to the point and to me it looks like a point scoring exercise for you.

It's not irrelevant - if you think there is demand for finals at Windsor that is going begging whilst stadium remains un-full, then clearly segregation is the issue that is causing this.

You are talking rubbish mate. Are you saying that when Man Utd visit Blackburn, there are only 25000 people in teh ground which holds 36,000. Are you saying there isn't a demand for tickets by Man Utd fans who have sold out there 4,000 tickets and have turned many thousands down? It is exactly the same as the cup final.

Stadiums aren't built to meet the needs of away teams. Likewise - the IFA would be daft to set-up their structures and facilities just for the needs of one team.

The bottom line here is that Windsor will remain the Cup Final stadium for the next 5 or so years at least. That stadium rarely sells out for Cup Finals - due on occassion to strict segregation. So if you's want bigger crowds at your Cup Finals, and adherence to such strict segregation is deemed unnecessary (as it is at FAI Cup Finals) then there's a very simple answer on how to make your finals capacity whilst you are at Windsor. The whole 'what could be' scenario building is just meaningless twaddle that ignores the reality.

[Dodge]

*sigh*