Welsh Cup Final

[Cymro]

I'm sorry Cymro. What I recounted above came directly from the mouth of the FA of Wales President who set-up the Welsh Premier league and made the changes to the FAW Cup (Alun Evans) mentioend above. No disrespect - but I suspect he should know a bit better.

Also - UEFA can't tell the Welsh FA what clubs it should and shouldn't have competing in its cup. That's not what UEFA does, and it would be illegal under EU law to prevent Welsh clubs playing in Wales from competign in a Welsh Cup if they wanted to do so. Hence why they've had to resort to shenanigans regarding timings of early rounds. If you think this is wrong, speak to Alun Evans.

I know there was strong attempts made by other members of the FAW, such as David Collins, to re-enter the English league clubs into the cup recently, but UEFA intervened and said in order for those clubs to compete in the 'official' Welsh Cup, they would have to play their football in the Welsh pyramid.

There was an article about it on one of the Welsh Premier websites a while ago. I'll see if I can dig it up for you.

The problem is the FAW is so disorganised with so many members that inevitably there will be disagreeing on certain issues. Really, it needs less people like David Collins and Alun Evans and someone to just provide some sort of clarity and direction for the game in this country.

[Cymro]

So Derry City could compete in the Irish Cup if they want to? I'm not being arguementative, it is a genuine question I don't know the answer to.

I couldn't see UEFA allowing that, unless Derry quit the League of Ireland and re-joined the Irish League.

I can't think of any club in World Football that competes in one FA's league and another FA's cup, except in Liechtenstein, where they have no league and all clubs play in Germany or Switzerland.

[dcfcsteve]

I couldn't see UEFA allowing that, unless Derry quit the League of Ireland and re-joined the Irish League.

I can't think of any club in World Football that competes in one FA's league and another FA's cup, except in Liechtenstein, where they have no league and all clubs play in Germany or Switzerland.

Firstly, most leagues in Europe are run by a different body than runs the cups - e.g. in England it's the Premier league who run the league and the FA who run the cup; in Norn Iron, unless things have changed, it's the Irish League Management Committe who run the league and the IFA who run the cup, and in the Republic there were also 2 separate bodies until the FAI took overall control last year. Therefore - why does membership of one body have to affect your ability to participate in another's competition ? They are separate, and very often conflicting, organisations.

Secondly - it all comes down to what the rules of the Irish Cup are. If all that is required to participate is to be NI-based and to quality through an appropriate channel, then DCFC would be able to enter - providing they qualified through an appropriate channel. Membership of a league within Northern Irealnd may or may not be listed as an appropriate channel. Even if it was, what would stop DCFC from technically registering to join the D&D League and gaining qualification that way (again - assuming they got elected on) ?

Bottom line Cymro is that it's all about rules and laws. Just becauwe something doesn't currently happen doesn't mean it can't. If it's within the rules to happen, and against the law to stop it from happening, then that is all that's matter.

All moot anyway - as no danger of us competing in an Irsih Cup that isn't island-wide.

[Cymro]

My argument was that UEFA have definitely made a statement on the six Welsh clubs playing in England and that they would not allow them to enter the Welsh Cup and qualify for Europe, apparently due to fears that Celtic and Rangers would move to England and be able to qualify for Europe via the Scottish Cup.

Simply stating that if they allowed Derry to enter into the Northern Irish Cup, they wouldn't exactl be practising what they preach.

[Paddyfield]

I was in Bangor , North Wales at a stag party ten or eleven years ago. Bangor City FC were 2nd in ther League of Wales and were playing the top team in a title decider (well, there were another 7 games to go but and they were sperated by a few points but you gotta get on the bandwagon...). The visiting team had a funny name; let's just call them Calaworstyvnmny8dfkjgheo¢g* FC.

There were only 900 at the game in a ground that made St Mel's look like the Nou Camp; that said the game was good and we were made very welcome. There was a lot of merchandise on sale and the match programme was a good read. However, the pitch was shockingly poor and there was great apathy in the town towards the local football team. I felt right at home.

*Is there a team called Ton Pentre or similar? I suppose I could google it...

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, Ton Pentre are a team. Think they're in the lower leagues at present.

[dcfcsteve]

Did anyone else watch this game yesterday ?

Finished Carmarthen 3, Afan Dildo 2.

Entertaining enough game, though the standard wasn't great and the attendance was woeful - 976 people for a senior cup final !

I know these aren't the 2 best teams in Wales, but even the crowd alone shows the gulf that exists between Irish and Welsh club football.

I hope one of our teams gets a Welsh club in Europe this year to makes amends for Longford's eternal shame (though ideally not City, as we're muck at the moment ! ).

[Cymro]

Yeah you were right Steve, the standard was not great but I thought the first half was decent enough though the second half was terrible as Carmarthen (the much better side) were in second gear for much of it.

The goals were quite good though. You could probably find them posted somewhere on youtube.

I don't think crowds prove jack all to be honest Steve, but if you want to have that debate I'd be happy to challenge you on your opinions about where Eircom League teams would fit into the English pyramid. Going on that theory I make them League Two at best and UniBond League at worst!

Our European reps are Carmarthen, Rhyl, Llanelli and New Saints-I'm sure they'd all do us no disrespect in Europe whoever they play. If they come up against an Irish side I'll be watching with interest, other than that, good luck to your sides in Europe.

Actually, I think I'm right in saying the only possible Irish-Welsh tie this year could be Derry v TNS, as your UEFA reps are unseeded and the Intertoto draw has already been made.

[ifk101]

Just out of interest Cymro, are any of the Welsh clubs professional and how would Welsh club grounds compared with that on offer in the LOI?

[Cymro]

Just out of interest Cymro, are any of the Welsh clubs professional and how would Welsh club grounds compared with that on offer in the LOI?

5 professional clubs, 3 in the English leagues and 2 in the Welsh ones, though both the professional clubs in the Welsh Premier are financed through the noses.

Some decent grounds around in the Welsh Premier, don't know what Irish grounds are like but the best ones are probably Rhyl, Newtown, Cwmbran and now Port Talbot who've just built a 1,000 seat stand-I've been there and it's quite impressive.

Newtown's looks a lot better in realiy than in that picture to be honest, as the picture just has the main stand in shot. I've never been there but have seen it TV plenty of times.

There are some bad grounds as well though. Fortunately the FAW is bringing in some new ground criteria for 2010 that states each clubs should have 1,000 seats or more. That should improve the quality of grounds greatly.

[dcfcsteve]

I don't think crowds prove jack all to be honest Steve, but if you want to have that debate I'd be happy to challenge you on your opinions about where Eircom League teams would fit into the English pyramid. Going on that theory I make them League Two at best and UniBond League at worst!

Crowds do give some indication. Football is all about money - so where large gulfs in attendances occur, it would be natural to expect a gulf in overall quality.

But this only works where you compare like-with-like. Eircom League crowds may be c. League 2 level in England. But there are other levels above that for quality English players to go within England. In Ireland, it's either the EL Premier or nowhere for the best players who stay in Ireland. As the EL is at the top of the local food-chain, it will therefore attract the best home-based players, regardless of attendances. So this is where the danger is in not comparing like-with-like.

For furtehr comparison, the top Welsh premier sides might be as good or even better than the top First Division sides in the Eircom League. That is despite attendnaces for our first division being better than your league - and particular for our top teams. But again - because good players in the EL first division have a higher level to gravitate towards, because it's not comparing like-for-like in terms of levels then the attendnaces comparison doesn't work either.

A much better comparision would be English lower league/non-league football versus Irish lower league/non-league football - as that is comparing like-with-like. On that basis, Ireland would clearly be worse than England, and that is in no small part due to the greater wealth of their game at those levels due to attendances.

There is no way beyond the short-term that the Welsh Premier league can be of a decent standard with the tiny attendances it gets. Football is more-and-more about money - and crowds are the key to that beyond the short-term.

[ifk101]

Actually, I think I'm right in saying the only possible Irish-Welsh tie this year could be Derry v TNS, as your UEFA reps are unseeded and the Intertoto draw has already been made.

Yes and no. Derry will be seeded in the Champions League draw. The seeding for LOI clubs in the UEFA Cup has yet to be decided - depends on how many teams UEFA allocates to the Northern section of the draw. It is, however, most likely that both LOI teams will be unseeded.

[dcfcsteve]

5 professional clubs, 3 in the English leagues and 2 in the Welsh ones, though both the professional clubs in the Welsh Premier are financed through the noses.

Some decent grounds around in the Welsh Premier, don't know what Irish grounds are like but the best ones are probably Rhyl, Newtown, Cwmbran and now Port Talbot who've just built a 1,000 seat stand-I've been there and it's quite impressive.

Newtown's looks a lot better in realiy than in that picture to be honest, as the picture just has the main stand in shot. I've never been there but have seen it TV plenty of times.

There are some bad grounds as well though. Fortunately the FAW is bringing in some new ground criteria for 2010 that states each clubs should have 1,000 seats or more. That should improve the quality of grounds greatly.

Cymro - have you been to an Eircom league ground ??

I've been to Newton's stadium, and it would be lower First Division standard in our league in my opinion. It's got one nice, but small and rather outdated, stand and then a whole lot of nothing (though they do have a bar). If that's one of the best grounds you can mention in the WPL, then you should really take a look at Turners Cross, Tolka, Dalymount, Flancare, Athlone.....

I've just decided I'm gonna take a spin over to a few Welsh Premier games next season to have a better look at standard/facilities.

P.S. Shame that Cwmbran are going to be in non-league football next season, as from those pictures they seem to have the best stand in the WPL.

[Pretender]

For all the abuse (not my opinion I might add) Devine and Ryan get for being goalkeepers who can look a bit heavy, they are stick-insects compared to the two Welsh goalkeepers in yesterdays final! I got a great kick out of it... they must have strict training regiemes!!

[dcfcsteve]

For all the abuse (not my opinion I might add) Devine and Ryan get for being goalkeepers who can look a bit heavy, they are stick-insects compared to the two Welsh goalkeepers in yesterdays final! I got a great kick out of it... they must have strict training regiemes!!

Meant to mention that myself. They looked like the traditional pub-league image of goal keepers - old and over-weight.

[Cymro]

Cymro - have you been to an Eircom league ground ??

I've been to Newton's stadium, and it would be lower First Division standard in our league in my opinion. It's got one nice, but small and rather outdated, stand and then a whole lot of nothing (though they do have a bar). If that's one of the best grounds you can mention in the WPL, then you should really take a look at Turners Cross, Tolka, Dalymount, Flancare, Athlone.....

I've just decided I'm gonna take a spin over to a few Welsh Premier games next season to have a better look at standard/facilities.

P.S. Shame that Cwmbran are going to be in non-league football next season, as from those pictures they seem to have the best stand in the WPL.

I've been to Dalymount actually, in the days when they used to play Irish internationals there I think we played you there one time. It may have been an under 21 game, can't remember. It's a nice ground, better than any Welsh Premier one but nothing compared to Swansea's.

I've seen pictures of some of your grounds but am generally ignorant.

Cwmbran have a nice stand but the running track in between the stand and the pitch makes viewing difficult. Rhyl's ground is probably the best in the league with something like 3,000 seats. TNS building a new one as well that's supposed to meet UEFA criteria.

Crowds do give some indication. Football is all about money - so where large gulfs in attendances occur, it would be natural to expect a gulf in overall quality.

But this only works where you compare like-with-like. Eircom League crowds may be c. League 2 level in England. But there are other levels above that for quality English players to go within England. In Ireland, it's either the EL Premier or nowhere for the best players who stay in Ireland. As the EL is at the top of the local food-chain, it will therefore attract the best home-based players, regardless of attendances. So this is where the danger is in not comparing like-with-like.

I see your point, but the best players in your league tend to end up in England or Scotland as evidenced by the large amount of players that left your league this summer, and also by the amount of young Irish players who start their careers in the youth academy of Premiership teams.

From the one game I've seen that seems about right. Though I am trying to watch more of your games to get a better picture.

Also, I could go further here into the attendance argument, the Lithuanian league has average attendances about the same as the Welsh Premier-around the 300 mark. Yet it is a far better league than the one in Kazakhstan, at least going by UEFA coefficients, and the Kazakh league has attendances around the 7,000 mark. Higher than in Ireland, incidentally, and the same 'home players' rule that you've theorized probably applies there too.

Is the Kazakh league better than the League of Ireland? Think on it.

I would not say that attendances have no affect on a club's standard, however going on what I've just said you'd have to agree it's not the be all and end all.

[Cymro]

Meant to mention that myself. They looked like the traditional pub-league image of goal keepers - old and over-weight.

The Afan keeper I'll let you have as he obviously enjoys his pies, but what was wrong with Neil Thomas?

Also with Afan we're talking about something like the 25th best team in Wales, let's not forget that.

[Cymro]

There is no way beyond the short-term that the Welsh Premier league can be of a decent standard with the tiny attendances it gets. Football is more-and-more about money - and crowds are the key to that beyond the short-term.

Another point to make here about attendances, look at the amount of 'small' clubs in England's top two divisions, eg Fulham, Colchester, Southend, Blackburn Rovers, Bolton, etc and then look at the 'big' ones in the lower leagues.

Nottigham Forest are a massive club with attendances around the 18,000 mark yet have a crap side in relative terms. So will Leeds next year and they will have similar attendances. And of course there's Swansea with crowds around 13,000

Then there's Bradford down to League Two next year yet will probably be pushing the 10,000 mark.

Colchester by comparison are a tiny club with attendances around the 4,000 mark yet are competing well in the Championship.

[dcfcsteve]

Another point to make here about attendances, look at the amount of 'small' clubs in England's top two divisions, eg Fulham, Colchester, Southend, Blackburn Rovers, Bolton, etc and then look at the 'big' ones in the lower leagues.

Nottigham Forest are a massive club with attendances around the 18,000 mark yet have a crap side in relative terms. So will Leeds next year and they will have similar attendances. And of course there's Swansea with crowds around 13,000

Then there's Bradford down to League Two next year yet will probably be pushing the 10,000 mark.

Colchester by comparison are a tiny club with attendances around the 4,000 mark yet are competing well in the Championship.

There's exceptuions to every rule Cymro. It's njot about individual clubs - it's about overall levels of support for football. And trying to compare Ireland with Kazakhstan is ridiculous - again, hardly like-for-like.

As a broad rule of thumb, the relative quality of football in countries that are geographically close to each other will broadly resemble their relative support levels. There will obviously be a lower and upper level beyond which the rule doesn't work, but generally it's certainly true when you look at the regional clusters in Europe : e.g. England/Scotland/Wales/Ireland ; Scandinavia/Finland/Holland/Belgium, Spain/Portugal etc.

[Cymro]

There's exceptuions to every rule Cymro. It's njot about individual clubs - it's about overall levels of support for football. And trying to compare Ireland with Kazakhstan is ridiculous - again, hardly like-for-like.

As a broad rule of thumb, the relative quality of football in countries that are geographically close to each other will broadly resemble their relative support levels. There will obviously be a lower and upper level beyond which the rule doesn't work, but generally it's certainly true when you look at the regional clusters in Europe : e.g. England/Scotland/Wales/Ireland ; Scandinavia/Finland/Holland/Belgium, Spain/Portugal etc.

Comparing Kazakhstan to Ireland was just something I did to refute your original claim.

But since you've now got this 'regional' theory going, aren't Kazakhstan and Lithuania relatively close? Geography is not my strongest point but I'm fairly sure those two countries are fairly closely situated.

I'll leave you to think about that one, in the mean time, you put Ireland in the same geographical cluster as England yet say that crowds have no affect on the standards in both those countries. Why? We can agree that the best League of Ireland players end up in England and certainly from what I've heard Ireland is being scouted heavily by English clubs, and those clubs have the financial muscle to take the best players from Irish clubs.

You say it's not about individual clubs, but overall levels of support.

Here's a brief run-down of the approximate average levels of support in each of the UK and Ireland's leagues.

English Premiership-c. 35,000
English Championship-c. 15,000
Scottish Premiership-c. 10,000
English League One-c. 6,000
English League Two-c. 2,500
Scottish Division 1-c. 1,500
League of Ireland Premier Division-c. 1,500
English Conference-c. 1,200
Scottish Division 2-c. 750
Irish League Premier Divison- ? (would guess around 750-no official figures)
Welsh Premier League- c. 300
Scottish Division 3- c. 300

Going on that and by your theory you'd expect the following to be true:

-The Scottish Division 1 and the League of Ireland Premier Division are roughly on par. Derry v Gretna anyone?
-The League of Ireland Premier Division is about 5 times superior to the Welsh Premier League. Carmarthen Town anyone?
-The Irish League is 1.5 times inferior to the Conference. That wouldn't be the case judging on the friendly the two sides played last month. It finished IL 3, Conference 1, for the record.
-The Championship is 1.5 times better than the Scottish Premiership in overall quality. Possibly true but certainly debateable.