Irish Sunderland fan here. Debate very interesting

**NY Hoop** · 02/05/2007, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by monutdfc

Is that true? Literally killed?

There was the case of the Tipperary hurler who glassed an Irish fan of another team (one was Liverpool and the other was Man Utd) while they were drinking in England.

Unfortunately yes. Took a while to come to court and naturally enough the guy got away with it. Very sad overall.

The 23rd will be a day to be embarrassed to be Irish. Thankfully I will be thousands of miles away.

The Dublin red fair play for supporting Bray. Nobody has a problem with EL fans supporting english clubs as well simply because they support their Irish club first.

But do you not think it is a travesty that Irish people spend hundreds of thousands of euro annually travelling to england to "support" an english club and for those that never go but spend on jersies for their brainwashed kids etc?

IMO if that money was spent on supporting their local club this league could be one of the best in Europe. Travel around the continent and you will find that this is a unique Irish problem. There are leagues not as good as ours that get local support. It's all really simple. You're Irish support an Irish club. You're english support an english club. You're french..... I'm sure you can follow.......

KOH

**superfrank** · 02/05/2007, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

It's all really simple. You're Irish support an Irish club. You're english support an english club. You're french..... I'm sure you can follow.......

I disagree. I think you should be free to choose who you support. That's what I do.

**GavinZac** · 02/05/2007, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by superfrank

I disagree. I think you should be free to choose who you support. That's what I do.

Oh you're free to do what you want. But we'd be free to say you'd be being ridiculous.

**NeilMcD** · 02/05/2007, 11:32 AM

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Yeah but you can't be a member of U2 (unless you actually are a member of U2)

True we are the lucky ones that can be members. Not every LOI team has that system in place and most teams in the Major leagues in Europe dont have it either. So I supose a member of a U2 Fan club could say they are support a cultural identity that is Irish just as much as a St Pats fan etc. I believe in supporting Irish football and going to games and I enjoy it, I am just sticking up for music also as I think it is very important in relation to a nations culture. U2 might be a bad example but you picked it and like St Pats they have an international and cosumerist dimention, i.e. selling of merchandise etc.

**NY Hoop** · 02/05/2007, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

True we are the lucky ones that can be members. Not every LOI team has that system in place and most teams in the Major leagues in Europe dont have it either. So I supose a member of a U2 Fan club could say they are support a cultural identity that is Irish just as much as a St Pats fan etc. I believe in supporting Irish football and going to games and I enjoy it, I am just sticking up for music also as I think it is very important in relation to a nations culture. U2 might be a bad example but you picked it and like St Pats they have an international and cosumerist dimention, i.e. selling of merchandise etc.

Except you cant buy a Pats jersey!

Comparing football to music and shopping etc is farcical IMO.

KOH

**NeilMcD** · 02/05/2007, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Except you cant buy a Pats jersey!

Comparing football to music and shopping etc is farcical IMO.

KOH

Why because you are a football fan. I agree shopping is a purely comsumerist practice by its nature but football and music are not. You feel rightly that Rovers represent you and as they are your local club you support them. Thats right and proper. But there are many people in this country who feel the same way about trad music and feel that the tradition must be handed down from family to famlily just like fathers bringing sons to matches. Its an expression of both your local and national culture.

**BohDiddley** · 02/05/2007, 12:38 PM

You could compare live football and live music, but not live football and just music. Popular music is designed to be a media product and few would argue otherwise. The whole point of supporting Irish football, in my view, is that it is real and present.
I enjoy watching MOTD and the Champions League, but actually being at a match is a totally different experience. To my mind, television -- EPL, Seria A, CL -- virtual football and real club football are different sports.
That's why it's ok (if kinda naff) to follow Sunderland, once doing so doesn't mean that you are then turning around, as so many barstoolers do, and trying to justify that with contempt for the domestic game.

**R�iteoir** · 02/05/2007, 1:01 PM

I'm in quite a unique position of sorts - like Steve - I'm currently residing in England.

But I'm one of the many diehard Bohs supporters (my father was a supporter and his father was too, but I'm the first member of the family to be a Card Carrying Member of this great institution)

I make about 10-12 games a season (mainly at home or when we're playing one of the other Dublin based sides) - the plan is to make it over at least twice a month circumstances allowing.

I normally fork out �70 per season to be the video sponsor for a game or two, contribute to the club whenever asked (lotteries, prediction competitions, etc.)

Friday nights aren't spent out in town with mates - I'm usually found sat in my home office with a few cans, listening to Friday Sportsnight (which is an absolutely superb show) or whenever there is an RT� or TG4 game on live - watching that over the web (no matter who is playing). Once the game is over I'll then head out into town to either celebrate a Bohs win or drown my sorrows at another loss to Bray

I've made so many friends both within the club (the sense of going through stuff with these guys is something you NEVER get with Premiership clubs) - the European trips in July, the windswept nights of Cup games, the celebrations at the end of a season when the players you know personally and can approach without problems lift that silverware - the sense of "That is MY club" - to be a part of something so good - is the hook of the thing and what makes it special.

I've converted two friends here in England on the back of them watching the Live games on RT� over the web (unfortunately they chose Drogheda over Bohs

) - they loved the atmosphere, the stadia (Dalymount for the record), the standard of football (with no quarter given and good old fashioned challenges flying in), and the whole package (one is a Leeds fan who also picked Drogs in connection with the Gary Kelly links) - the other fella (pretty big QPR fan) wants me to also get him a home Drogs jersey.

They both want to come over for the weekend Bohs play Drogheda in August in the League - I've told them I'll take them round the ground, meeting people, etc. - give them the whole eL experience.

I love this League of ours and the people in it - I wouldn't swap it for anything at all.

However - I start a new job for a water maintainance company on Tuesday coming (in their IT Department - interview successfully negotiated yesterday - the only downside is I'll miss the League Cup game versus Shels I was planning on coming over for

) - plus side is - it'll give me more cash to play about with and a bit more Annual Leave to use to feed the Bohs fix.

**dcfcsteve** · 02/05/2007, 1:02 PM

Originally Posted by holidaysong

A life saving drug is.

No it's not. As is clearly shown by the unwillingness of health services around the world to pay for certain treatments against AIDS, cancer etc. Why do you think there's such a lobby agaisnt the health companies who make retro-viral drugs for HIV ? If the product was inelastic, they'd just go ahead and pay for it. Instead they either don't, or just buy less - and people die.

Money is king at the end of the day - particularl for health providers. If something costs too much, less and less people will pay for it.

**dcfcsteve** · 02/05/2007, 1:11 PM

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

I said I was borrowing terminology, not the concept. I'm fully aware of the concept of Price Elasticity of Demand as my Economics teacher at school was constantly telling us that people would never pay 60P for a Mars Bar. Of course that was before the devil may care extrevagant attitude to spending of the tigercubs.

Your economics teacher was right that no-one would pay 60p for a Mars Bar. Cleverly, they foresaw the introduction of the Euro.....

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

My point however was that Rugby as a sport has limited appeal in this country. There is a certain amount of people in the country who are open to going to see the provincial sides as long as they are doing well. That zenith has already been reached as there is nowhere else for the provincial sides to go. If the controversies between the French and English clubs, for example where to spell the demise of the Heineken cup, that would effectively be the end of the Irish public's fascination with the game.

Don't underestimate rugby BP. One decent year for the international team does not equal the zenith of rugby on this island. Firstly - any sport has the ability to grow further. It takes time to get kids invoilved in the game and for that to spread, so much of it will happen off the proverbial radar. Secondly - a certain amount of psychological and societal opposition to rugby was to do with a sense of nationalism. But ireland has grown up a lot now, and doesn't see traditionally English games like rugby and cricket as being so perverse to its insecure sense of identity any more. This will inevitably lead to more interest.

Finaly - rugby has deep roots in this country. Partialarly in Ulster, Munster and certain parts of Dublin. It should be no great surprise if those roots continue to dig deeper and grow wider - particularly if the international team plays well. If ireland won the World Cup or the 6 nations, for example, you'd see even more support for rugby around - which shows clearly that it hasn't reached its high-water mark yet.

**BohsPartisan** · 02/05/2007, 1:42 PM

I used to play Rugby myself Steve - for Navan RFC, I remember during the 1991 world cup there was an influx of kids into the underage sides but after a while a lot of them drifted away after the novelty wore off. I just think Rugby is a sport whos support ebbs and flows with the success or failure of the national teams and the provincial sides and I really can't see it expanding its support much wider than what it has over the last couple of years.

**The Dublin Red** · 02/05/2007, 1:52 PM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Unfortunately yes. Took a while to come to court and naturally enough the guy got away with it. Very sad overall.

The 23rd will be a day to be embarrassed to be Irish. Thankfully I will be thousands of miles away.

The Dublin red fair play for supporting Bray. Nobody has a problem with EL fans supporting english clubs as well simply because they support their Irish club first.

But do you not think it is a travesty that Irish people spend hundreds of thousands of euro annually travelling to england to "support" an english club and for those that never go but spend on jersies for their brainwashed kids etc?

IMO if that money was spent on supporting their local club this league could be one of the best in Europe. Travel around the continent and you will find that this is a unique Irish problem. There are leagues not as good as ours that get local support. It's all really simple. You're Irish support an Irish club. You're english support an english club. You're french..... I'm sure you can follow.......

KOH

I respect your point but it all comes down people's freedom of choice.

I'm never going to change my allegiance and I believe the vast majority of supporters of overseas clubs won't either. Again it comes down to promoting the LOI, there is nothing to stop people supporting both. Seasons are different and most games are on a Friday night?

It's when sections of the LOI support base Sneer and deride supporters of English clubs that drives the wedge. It's like your a better football fan if you support your local LOI side. I take it then people would object to fans supporting any LOI club as opposed to their LOCAL club?

I think the LOI has to expand beyond being overwhelmingly Dublin dominated however to build the League means competing with the GAA. The reality is if the LOI could tap into the 80,000 Dubs who fill Croker for Dublin games it would be off huge benefit.

I don't buy the theory of you're Irish support an Irish club exclusively, we're globalised and open to all sorts of cultural and sporting influences worldwide. As well as that if you take my club Nottingham Forest, the fanbase goes well beyond Nottingham asthe city is relatively small. I give you an example it is easier and cheaper for me to attend Forest games than it is for the London based Trickies. A flight is €40 return for a day trip and all in all I can have a cracking day for €100.

**jebus** · 02/05/2007, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

I used to play Rugby myself Steve - for Navan RFC, I remember during the 1991 world cup there was an influx of kids into the underage sides but after a while a lot of them drifted away after the novelty wore off. I just think Rugby is a sport whos support ebbs and flows with the success or failure of the national teams and the provincial sides and I really can't see it expanding its support much wider than what it has over the last couple of years.

Agreed, given that I'm from the heart of Munster rugby, it's easy to see the point you are making there BP. Last year, before and after the European Cup win you couldn't walk the streets of Limerick without seeing 1 in 3 people kitted out in Munster t-shirts/jerseys, everyone seemed to be a rugby fan. This year, after Munster's dismal showing you never hear talk of Munster/rugby/or even the upcoming World Cup, the sport in Limerick reached it's zenith last year, leaving behind the local clubs, such as Garryowen and Young Munster in a dire state, as the bandwagon jumpers really don't care how well these clubs are doing now, after seeing how big the Munster wagon was. Should the Heineken Cup go, then rugby in Limerick will die a death, attendences for their Magnier League games show that there is probably more real support for Limerick 37, than for Munster rugby

**NY Hoop** · 02/05/2007, 1:59 PM

[QUOTE=The Dublin Red;677607]It's like your a better football fan if you support your local LOI side. I take it then people would object to fans supporting any LOI club as opposed to their LOCAL club?

[QUOTE]

Hey I have heard of a guy from wexford who goes to every shels game. Doesnt matter really as he's supporting an Irish club.

You are a better football fan if you support a club here. There is zero sense of identity travelling to another country to "support" a foreign club.

BTW you can have a cracking night out at the Carlisle Grounds for a lot less than a ton.

KOH

**The Dublin Red** · 02/05/2007, 2:47 PM

[QUOTE=NY Hoop;677614][QUOTE=The Dublin Red;677607]It's like your a better football fan if you support your local LOI side. I take it then people would object to fans supporting any LOI club as opposed to their LOCAL club?

Hey I have heard of a guy from wexford who goes to every shels game. Doesnt matter really as he's supporting an Irish club.

You are a better football fan if you support a club here. There is zero sense of identity travelling to another country to "support" a foreign club.

BTW you can have a cracking night out at the Carlisle Grounds for a lot less than a ton.

KOH

But the point is thats your opinion. In answer to your question I don't have the same craic at a Bray game, that's how I feel and its my chocie to suppirt who I like.

I also totally disagree with what you claim as a zero sense of identity supporting an overseas team. You don't recognise it as real support which I find (no disrespect) patronising and does absolutely nothing to attract people to the LOI.

The better football fan, the better patriot and all that doesn't wash with me. How about supporting the Dublin GAA team, real sportmen who play for pride, the county and for no money. Gaelic games are the national games and soccer/football will never be in a position in this country to match it.

But my central point is it all comes down to personal preference and personal freedom. I couldn't give a hoot if you regard me as a "lesser" and you're a "superior" fan. I'm happy to have made my choice and have great memories from my 17 years association with Nottingham Forest. It will NEVER change.

Whilst I wish the LOI every success I would rather give up my time for Junior soccer and developing it in my area.

**OneRedArmy** · 02/05/2007, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by The Dublin Red

I I believe the vast majority of supporters of overseas clubs won't [change the clubs they support] either.

If you believe this to be true, then the planes full of Sunderland supporters and bars full of Chelsea fans must contain fans who are new to the game, as they weren't there 5 or 10 years ago.

Many are in their 30s and 40s and I find it highly unlikely they only recently discovered football.

More likely they have quietly changed alliegence from Leeds, Blackburn, Liverpool or whatever team used to be en vogue.

**dcfcsteve** · 02/05/2007, 2:56 PM

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

I used to play Rugby myself Steve - for Navan RFC, I remember during the 1991 world cup there was an influx of kids into the underage sides but after a while a lot of them drifted away after the novelty wore off. I just think Rugby is a sport whos support ebbs and flows with the success or failure of the national teams and the provincial sides and I really can't see it expanding its support much wider than what it has over the last couple of years.

Name me one sport who's fortunes don't ebb and flow with success ?

If you were around in 1991, then you can probably remember the sudden and phenomenal interest in soccer that happened in 1988 which, surprise surprise, coincided with international success. There were loads of new articles etc about how soccer was suddenly cool./popular in places it had never been before.

Of course not everyone who gets interested in any new sport, hobby, language etc will stik at it. That is human nature, not some startling revelation about rugby.

Are you trying to say that rugby in Ireland is no more popular now than it was in 1991 ? If you're not, then clearly it's support has flowed - not ebbed.
I left school in Derry in 1991. At that time, St Columbs (largest Catholic boys school in the north) didn't play rugby -as, in fact, most Catholic schools didn't. Now it does, and has been doing for years. It's the same with a number of other Catholic schools I know in the north. Plenty of flow in-evidence, with very little ebb....

Who's to say it won't or can't all flow even further....?

**NY Hoop** · 02/05/2007, 2:57 PM

But we cant attract people like you to our league because you are so brainwashed by your foreign club (no disrespect) that if Bray beat forest 10-0 in the CL it wouldnt turn you. You are right I dont recognise it as real support.

I used to support the Dubs but those days are gone seeing as the GAA are trying to kill off our club in Tallaght. Are you implying that EL players are not "real sportsmen"?? And if you think that inter county players are out of pocket I feel sorry for your naivety.

KOH

**BohsPartisan** · 02/05/2007, 2:57 PM

Yeah but Gaelic Football is a rubbish sport compared to Association Football and its rules have been utilised on this island no longer than the association rules, possibly for not as long.

**paul_oshea** · 02/05/2007, 3:01 PM

The concept of demand elasticity is all about demand in relation to price - nothing too do with the growth of demand in isolation. It therefore constantly changes (dependent upon price).

damn, i wanted to point that one out!!!

BTW in reference to someone saying "you compared supporting a team to a gig", I am a big fan of hard rock/metal/whatever you want to call it, and view it in the same way as supporting a team - almost. Its not consumerism, its much much more than that. so dont put it down!