Election 2007

[GavinZac]

This is what Dodge said:
And here we are a few pages later........

I was joking, if i was really on a wind up i'd have used far more crime-based analogies

[Calcio Jack]

The plan all along was to use the fact that we had a cheaply available workforce to stimulate the economy, and then use this influx of cash to educate the younger people coming into the work force so as to add a better skill-value to the average employee and as such attract the Googles and the EMC's rather than factory multinationals. It seems to be going pretty well. Practically everyone now has a leaving cert leaving school, and practically everyone has the opportunity to do a degree.

The plan all along... don't kid yourself, FF never wrote down any such grand plan. Re the price of houses, yes I do blame FF and indeed the other mainstream parties.... the Kenny report which you appear to be ignoring came forward with the idea of capping devlopment land prices...if that had been introduced in the 70's then the current problem would of been seriousely mitigated, as it would if as I suggested there was a increase in the tax take for owners of 2nd houses.

From my memory of living through the 70's/80's what I seem to remember is a corrupt FF govt that was happy enough to tax paye workers at 58p ( I paid that rate when I was 23 and not earning much) whilst facilitating there "friends" in the building industry and others to stash their money away in overseas acounts by turning a blind eye to such behaviour.

FAO WAR, I'm not naieve to think that a coalition of FG/Lab etc would cure all the ills of the FF/PD past , I was just explaining why based on historical performance I wouldn't vote for them...

[Lim till i die]

I was joking, if i was really on a wind up i'd have used far more crime-based analogies

I dunno, a lot of your stuff on Limerick for someone who (alledgedly) visits was borderline ridiculous

Btw, my humblest apologies if you are infact blind

[GavinZac]

FAO WAR, I'm not naieve to think that a coalition of FG/Lab etc would cure all the ills of the FF/PD past , I was just explaining why based on historical performance I wouldn't vote for them...

So basically, your voting in this election will be based on speculative hindsight on a borderline communist anti-competition law that would have been thrown out by europe, and corruption the 70s?

[Calcio Jack]

So basically, your voting in this election will be based on speculative hindsight on a borderline communist anti-competition law that would have been thrown out by europe, and corruption the 70s?

No I'm basing my vote on a historical performance that continues right up to yesterday when Bertie's response to been asked about the Stg£30k that "Ms Larkin" received to do up the house they were renting , stated/muttered "...that was a stamp duty matter.." as I said earlier the man operate his finances in what is a gubu manner for most of us , although to FF supporters no doubt in a normal manner, sure hasn't Bertie the benefit of the advice of Des Peelo the late CJH's accountant...now that's what I call pedigree !!

In relation to your assertion that the implementation of the Kenny report would of been thrown out by Europe...doubt it since such laws have already been in force in a good number of EU member states for a number of years. Indeed some might also argue that because of the special position of property in our own Constitution that a cap on land prices could face a Constitutional challenge.... it might fail but IMO on the basis that the Supreme Court has a very long history of ruling in favour of the overall common good rather than the rights of individuals then I'd day it would be upheld.

ps...when did Communists embrace the idea of ownership of personal private property... oh I give up.

[OneRedArmy]

I'm 48..... managed to buy my first house for £16k in 1981. Have been in continous gainful employment for last 27 years. So I'm one of the lucky ones because I've benefited from the rise in property prices and have been fortunate enough to have a had a very well paid career for a long number of years... however I will not be voting FF/PD for the following reasons.

The Celtic Tiger didn't get where it is today with people following such an anti me fein approach such as you suggest

Your lack of self interest and prioritisation of the common good have no place in the FF/PD view of modern Ireland.

As you say, its easier to have principles when you own your own home and lead a comfortable life, but its refreshing to see someone push against the tide, when most of your peer group have probably spent the last 10 years accumulating property like it is going out of fashion (this is why I personally am awaiting a property crash with a huge amount of schadenfraude in reserve).

Like many on this thread, after all the negatives everyone has mentioned in assciation with the current Govt, I'm still staggered that even within the foot.ie population they appear to poll so well.

Thats democracy I suppose, but in that case, people deserve what they get.

Further re Bertie and the "new" E30k, I love the way he has a face on him like a dog eating sh1t out of a bed of nettles when anyone has the temerity to ask him about it.

Whilst it is GUBU to a lot of the country, he and his cronies are clearly so detached from the reality of what transparent, ethical and conflict-free behavioural norms are that they see it as a personal affront that people even have the temerity to ask questions about issues such as this.

The whole Wall deal stinks to high heavens and I suspect their is a lot more to come out.

[dahamsta]

Further re Bertie and the "new" E30k, I love the way he has a face on him like a dog eating sh1t out of a bed of nettles when anyone has the temerity to ask him about it.

He had a good teacher on that front. Good at thieving, obviously.

[Calcio Jack]

As you say, its easier to have principles when you own your own home and lead a comfortable life, but its refreshing to see someone push against the tide, when most of your peer group have probably spent the last 10 years accumulating property like it is going out of fashion (this is why I personally am awaiting a property crash with a huge amount of schadenfraude in reserve).

You're right about them accumulating property.... actually know one guy who owns 30 houses in the Dublin area and rents them out... and he's a Guard.

Still they'll do ok if there is a crash unless they only very recently got into the market. I'd be more worried if there is a crash as it will hit people on the margins.. ie a crash would mean the economy statrs to effect and you get a domino effect on jobs in the service industries and a fall off in tax revenues with the usual knock that services for the old/the sick and the marginalised get it in the neck.

The more I think about this I keep coming back to wondering why is that the u/30's aren't out in the streets protesting... my own personal view is that they've been sold a pup in that they seem to have more disposable income than any previous generation, so can own cars , have two holidays at least everry year, plenty of nights out etc (I know I'm somewhat generalising).The only thing they can't afford is a home and they seem to of bought into and accepted that house prices are just a unfortunate side effect of the Celtic Tiger when in fact they are artificially high because the FF/PDs have bent over and allowed property speculators set the agenda.

The worst trend resulting from all of this is the fact that many of my peers children are now finishing college and emigrating because they see no point in staying here because of property prices...which is awful .I saw 5 brothers and many friends forced to leave in the 70/80's and now it seems something similar is beginning to happen.

[jebus]

What do the morons voting for Fianna Fail think of Bertie being caught accepting money off businessmen again? Jesus just reading about how the money was loaned to Cecila, then used on a house Bertie was renting before he bought it makes my blood boil. Anyone who doesn't look at that situation and see a crook is a downright idiot in my book, I'm sorry if some find that offensive, but frankly I find your lack of sense offensive to my lingering thread of national pride

Actually I never got an answer to this question off the Fianna Failers on this one, due to the GavinZac debate last night. Are people who vote for Fianna Fail pretending this isn't happening? Or do you not care that our Taoiseach has his hand in many, many jars? Does it even give you any shred of doubt that you might not vote FF in 3 weeks time?

[pete]

Free 3rd level education is a funny one - get paid to sit around messing & drinking for 3-4 years. There should be interest free loans like many other countries which graduates start to repay when they start earning past a certain level of income.

3rd level education so mean higher than average salary so graduates should have the means to pay back the loans. Even when you pay for 3rd level education its still heavily subsidised by the State so should not be wasted on people that drop out or those that fail to use their degree by working in the local chipper.

Starting to get the election literature in the door not & slogan is agreed with was something like "we support the right of individuals to earn money but also that higher earning individuals should contribute back in taxes".

Its easy to suggest the average person does not earn 44k but that also people of varying experience, skills & work rate. I disagree with aspects about the current government but its a lie to suggest lower paid people have not benefited from the "Celtic Tiger". We have more or less full employment & one of the highest if not the highest minimum wages in Europe.

[Bald Student]

Actually I never got an answer to this question off the Fianna Failers on this one, due to the GavinZac debate last night. Are people who vote for Fianna Fail pretending this isn't happening? Or do you not care that our Taoiseach has his hand in many, many jars? Does it even give you any shred of doubt that you might not vote FF in 3 weeks time?

I don't vote FF for other reasons but I don't find these revelations all that offputting. At the same time as all this was going on, Bertie was wearing the same suit into work for about ten years with a shoddy anorack over it. Some people call this a cerefully crafted 'man of the people' image but I just don't think Bertie is (or was) on the make.

On top of this, prevoius allegations against him were proven false and the current ones seem to consist of a lot of smoke with no apparant fire.

[pete]

IMO Bertie has taken "loans" & "donations" for personal means when he was "a bit short". I am sure just like all politicians he saw nothing wrong then & sees nothing wrong now. I am also sure he has probably done favours to people like putting them on State Bodies & such but thats par for the course in politics & again he would see nothing wrong with appointing bale people who happened to be his friends. I doubt he is corrupt but still he has broken moral if not legal laws.

[OneRedArmy]

IMO Bertie has taken "loans" & "donations" for personal means when he was "a bit short". I am sure just like all politicians he saw nothing wrong then & sees nothing wrong now. I am also sure he has probably done favours to people like putting them on State Bodies & such but thats par for the course in politics & again he would see nothing wrong with appointing bale people who happened to be his friends. I doubt he is corrupt but still he has broken moral if not legal laws.

Pete, its all about establishing norms. What you appear to have stated is completely self-perpetuating. Its immaterial whether other politicians have done the same and its equally immaterial what Bertie's personal view is on the legality or morality of his actions!

If you asked bodies like Transparency International and other such monitors they would point to plenty of countries where the kind of cronyism and backscratching that is common practice here doesn't happen. Many of them may also be less developed than Ireland!

No offence, but its people like you, who shrug their shoulders and think its no big deal, that ensure it keeps happening.

[pete]

No offence, but its people like you, who shrug their shoulders and think its no big deal, that ensure it keeps happening.

I think you took me up incorrectly as I wasn't saying its ok. I was offering an opinion on how Bertie sees it. I believe even if it was proven conclusively that he took kickbacks loads of Irish people would say he deserved it while at the same time bemoan the corrupt politicians.

I don't know if this was posted anywhere else. How the Washington Times reported the election date. LOL

[jebus]

I think you took me up incorrectly as I wasn't saying its ok. I was offering an opinion on how Bertie sees it. I believe even if it was proven conclusively that he took kickbacks loads of Irish people would say he deserved it while at the same time bemoan the corrupt politicians.

I don't know if this was posted anywhere else. How the Washington Times reported the election date. LOL

Jesus Enda's barking up the wrong tree if he thinks FG will beat FF hands down in this election, as part of a 3 party coalition maybe, but getting more seats than FF, not too sure about that

As for that clown Adams saying the Sinn Fein will be sitting in two governments by the end of the month

[jebus]

I was joking, if i was really on a wind up i'd have used far more crime-based analogies

I was trying to think what would be the best way to describe your performance in this thread so far Gavin, and all I could think of is in this link

http://gavinzac.justgotowned.com/

although be warned, you need to have sound for the full effect

[GavinZac]

I was trying to think what would be the best way to describe your performance in this thread so far Gavin, and all I could think of is in this link

you rambled on for 3 pages about nothing in particular becayse of some grievance with a figure sourced from the IMF and independently from the CIA, before Calcio Jack came on and made some actual decent points to save what had become an embarrassing validation of "the left"'s perceived obsession with classes and elitism.
You had the temerity to refer to me as an upper middle class idiot on the basis that you had little or no understanding of what purchasing power parity measures or indicates and went on some rambling discourse about your mate's salaries. Added to your sidekick's demands to be paid to attend a third level course, you had very nearly pushed me towards being a card carrying right wing marketeer before Calcio Jack helpfully reminded me of some of the reasons I'll be voting Socialist Party in the coming weeks.

We say "pwnd" on the internet.

[jebus]

you rambled on for 3 pages about nothing in particular becayse of some grievance with a figure sourced from the IMF and independently from the CIA, before Calcio Jack came on and made some actual decent points to save what had become an embarrassing validation of "the left"'s perceived obsession with classes and elitism.
You had the temerity to refer to me as an upper middle class idiot on the basis that you had little or no understanding of what purchasing power parity measures or indicates and went on some rambling discourse about your mate's salaries. Added to your sidekick's demands to be paid to attend a third level course, you had very nearly pushed me towards being a card carrying right wing marketeer before Calcio Jack helpfully reminded me of some of the reasons I'll be voting Socialist Party in the coming weeks.

We say "pwnd" on the internet.

Don't make me post that link again

[Calcio Jack]

FF expected to announce a complete u-turn on the stamp duty issue today .Does this mean that if Bertie's asked again about the Stg£30k that "Ms Larkin" received in 1994 from Mr Wall of Manchester he'll reply "... that's not a stamp duty matter..." you gotta hand it to FF they oviously believe that they can fool enough people by making promises based on the latest "flavour of the month".... scary thing as I alluded to before they maybe right ie a large amount of the elctorate are selfish enough to be fooled by that type of auction politics, just like there parents were in 1977 by the Jack Lynch lead FF that promised to abiolish rates on private houses and car tax and they had a landslide victory which led to chaos a few years later under CJH and his cronies.....

[Lionel Ritchie]

I don't vote FF for other reasons but I don't find these revelations all that offputting. At the same time as all this was going on, Bertie was wearing the same suit into work for about ten years with a shoddy anorack over it. Some people call this a cerefully crafted 'man of the people' image but I just don't think Bertie is (or was) on the make.

On top of this, prevoius allegations against him were proven false and the current ones seem to consist of a lot of smoke with no apparant fire.

I have to quote myself here

....the type of nod'n'wink chancer who'll look the Irish people in the eye and tell them he managed to spend somewhere between fifty and eighty thousand punts on a "refurbishing"...
-of a three or four year old house...
-that he didn't own...
-in the year 1994...
-while he was supposedly broke.

But I suppose that's his own business

...are you seriously saying there is nothing suspicious ...even curious, in there?

I ask because if the attitude yourself and Pete are displaying is typical of the average casual Fianna Fail or even floating voter ...then we deserve no better than what we're served up by these people.