Angel signs for the Red Bulls

[dcfcsteve]

Pretty ignorant comment. There's a NY/NJ Metrostars fan on this board who was pretty upset at what had happened to his club.

OK. So explain to me then please the detailed history and tradition behind NY/NJ Metrostars - a club that was in existence for barely over a decade, yet who's team colours and name still managed to go through a number of iterations. Or maybe it only takes a decade to deliver history and tradition these days....

American soccer teams are franchises. Franchises get bought, sold and moved. This should be nothing new to followers of US sport, as there are plenty of high profile examples of this in indigenous sports there. So please explain to me how framnchises barely a decade old can't be knocked in terms of identity, roots to the local community etc ? The franchise system is intrinsically anathema to football's traditional philosophies of identity, community and roots - as those roots can be snipped at the whim of a greedy businessman. Franchise football creates tumble-weed clubs that blow in the wind of corporate and commercial self-interests, not ones with long-standing rooted identities in dedicated communities

If they don't like the franchise system, then they should push for an alternative - not just shriek with delight and pride when their area wins a franchise, and then howl with indignation when something happens to that franchise a short while later.

Regardless - i don't like what Red Bull is doing to football, as the game is the furthest thing from their mind. However - the diofference in reaction between when it happens to an American club, and when it inevitably happens to an English one, will reveal precisely the differences in history, support etc that I mentioned and that you seem keen to pretend don't exist.

[dcfcsteve]

And the history of American sport shows many examples of fans getting extremely upset over losing their team.

What should you expect when you suppport what is openly a franchise ?

What impact has suich 'upset' had on the decisions ? Zero.....

[dcfcsteve]

Have just had a look on Wikipedia to see what it had to say about all of this, and found the following :

While some fans were disappointed with the loss of Metro identity, others found fault in corporate branding, or with labeling the franchise as New York, when it plays and is headquartered in New Jersey. Other fans have welcomed the change, in light of the MetroStars' lack of success on the field, and waning support in the stands.

A real consensus there then ! So much for deeply held traditions, big support and upset fans, eh boys.....?

[Dodge]

If wikipedia said that it must be true.

[Poor Student]

"Some" and "others". Very quantifiable numbers. I'd expect better from you, Steve.

As if mere individual victim fans have the power to fundementally change the long established pattern of sport in such a large country.

[Jerry The Saint]

What should you expect when you suppport what is openly a franchise ?

Take it up with the Cork lads - I'd argue they felt quite a bit of pride when they first won the league 9 years after the franchise began.

[dcfcsteve]

"Some" and "others". Very quantifiable numbers. I'd expect better from you, Steve.

As if mere individual victim fans have the power to fundementally change the long established pattern of sport in such a large country.

And that's it ? I'd expect better from you as well PS.

Where's that sociological analysis of the history, identity, mass support and deep communtiy links of a constantly changing decade old franchise that I reqested in response to the assertion that my views here were "ignorant" ?

Individual fans in the US are happy to take the benefits of a franchise system - e.g. rushing to support a team when their area is allocated one - but not so quick to accept the downsides. Well tough titties - you can't take the rough without the smooth, as that's inherent in football....

[dcfcsteve]

Bit harsh. Most reports I read had their fans protesting (oh and they get better crowds than we do, so I wouldn't be using that stick to beat them with)

The MLS only gets better crowds than we do because the country is dramatically bigger. Per capita, their crowds are dramatically lower than ours.

The average MLS attendnace this season is only 16,500 - up from 15,500 from last year (due in large part to the 'Beckham effect'). I don't care if soccer is only the 179th most popular game over there or whatever - for a country of 300million people where the biggest partipation sport for kids is soccer, those attendances are very poor indeed.

To prove the point - per capita attendnaces are dramatically higher in Ireland than the US, even though our own league is poorly supported. On current figures, one in every 2,030 people in the Republic (incl Derry City population) attend an EL Premier game. For the MLS, the figure is only one in every 10,818. Considering the quality of stadiums over there and the number of people playing tha game, that is woeful. So the MLS does not get better crowds than we do....

[Poor Student]

Where's that sociological analysis of the history, identity, mass support and deep communtiy links of a constantly changing decade old franchise that I reqested in response to the assertion that my views here were "ignorant" ?

I know no more about that than you do. You've only supplied a vague wikipedia quote to back your view that they had a fickle fanbase. If the poster Metrostars is around he could answer you better.

[dcfcsteve]

If wikipedia said that it must be true.

No disrespect or personal slight intended - but I'd place more faith in them reporting something without sources than I would an individual I didn't know doing the same (e.g. yourself).

Your assertion that fans have been upset has no more value than their assertion that fans have been mixed in their reactions.

[Jerry The Saint]

http://foot.ie/showthread.php?t=34311

[dcfcsteve]

I know no more about that than you do. You've only supplied a vague wikipedia quote to back your view that they had a fickle fanbase. If the poster Metrostars is around he could answer you better.

A quote from Metrostars as posted on the thread URL'd above by Jerry the Sain :

....Sad day for the few Metrostars fans there are.

I rest my case.......

[Poor Student]

So because they are few in number they don't matter?

[Dodge]

Few is relative Steve. They get bigger crowds than any LOI crowd.

[jebus]

Why? MONEY, the greenstuff that makes the world go round, that's why.

Also if MLS did become a force then the big teams there will be a big draw. Just like Chelsea, 5 years ago they where a decent club with modest draw. Now they are a massive draw - Why? they have plenty of money and made a good side into a great side.

UEFA and CONCACAF would work together if they thought they could double there income.

The South American teams might have a few big name clubs, but they carry very little value with them. Is any of them in the top 100 richest clubs?

I'd agree with that (can't bring myself to say the words 'I agree with Steve Bruce ). I think when Man Utd were sent to the World Club Championships in 2000 that it was FIFA looking to see how people would react to a more glamourised WCC, and that they were looking to maybe expand the championships back then. I could certainly see where G14 decides that they could do business with the CONCACAF clubs, some Asian clubs and some North American sides (money spinners is your answer as to why they would be involved) and work with FIFA to create a lucrative World Club Championships

[Dodge]

They have a lucrative World Club Championship. They just decided to have only Continental Champions involved and to play it in Japan, Its worth huge money to competing clubs

[jebus]

They have a lucrative World Club Championship. They just decided to have only Continental Champions involved and to play it in Japan, Its worth huge money to competing clubs

Bit if you added in the likes of Man Utd, Liverpool, Barcelona, Real Madrid, AC and Inter Milan, Bayern Munich and Juventus, mixed them with Boca, River Plate, Flamengo, LA Galaxy, Chicago Fire, etc. within the next 5 seasons the increase in TV revenue alone would be worth a lot more to those clubs than the current WCC or European Cup

[Poor Student]

Apparently Toronto FC are interested in Neil Lennon.

[Dodge]

Sorry Jebus, didn't get what you meant originally...

I still don't see it happening. Far too many club are built on being the best in a particular area. A competition of this magnitude would mean they'd have to devote so much time to it and they'd have too much to lose nationally.

Apart from the fact UEFA etc wouldn't allow it (I know, I know... naive etc)

PS... Toronto's current manager is Mo Johnstone

[Poor Student]

Apart from the fact UEFA etc wouldn't allow it (I know, I know... naive etc)

Seeing the success of the CL FIFA were/are very much determined to get in on the act. That's what the World Club Championships in Brazil were all about. The idea was too much too soon from a somewhat megalomanic Blatter and it almost imploded on itself (plus the ISL collapse). The competition is now and back running in a more modest format. I am a fan of what is esentially a more inclusive version of the old Intercontinental Cup even if it is mainly token on behalf of the non-South American/European clubs. Don't be surprised to see FIFA attempt something on that scale again someytime.

I think it is possible that the MLS could one day challenge European hegemony of the game but only if they continue to take incremental steps. There's talk of LA Galaxy going for Zidane which would blow the arse out of this "one marquee" player rule. Hopefully they'll stick with that for a while instead of going boom and bust on the back of the Beckham deal.

PS... Toronto's current manager is Mo Johnstone

I know. He's actually failed manager of the New York Red Bulls. Apparently he attempted to get John Kennedy on loan from Celtic.