foot.ie on sunderland forum

**youngirish** · 25/04/2007, 1:35 PM

dcfcSteve why do you gravitate towards Derry? Would it be because you grew up in the locale, watched them play from a young age, know people and have an affinity with people who also share your love for them?

We support Ireland for the same reason but on an International level instead of a national one.

We are not so different you and I young Skywalker.

Nationalism is the way to go man. Tribalism is so Stone Age.

**eirebhoy** · 25/04/2007, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

I saw about 50 of them in Dublin airport a few weeks ago.

Although in fairness the emergence of the Irish cricket team as the next bandwagon has been making ridiculous demands on their time recently.....

I seriously doubt those 50 fans didn't care less about Sunderland last season though. It was the same when Abramovich took Chelsea over. I didn't see any 20, 30, 40 year old's start supporting Chelsea then but you'll see plenty of kids supporting them.

As for the cricket team. I was on that bandwagon from the start of the world cup. I hadn't a clue about the rules beforehand but learnt most of them in the first few hours watching Ireland - Zimbabwe. I can tell you my heart was pumping at the end of that match.

**paul_oshea** · 25/04/2007, 1:44 PM

But I'm friends with them because I like them, not because they're Irish. Some of them just happen to be Irish as well. Why should I have an interest in Seamus O'Flaherty at London United Rovers or whatever, just because he was born on the same island as me ? I'd never meet the guy, he's be from a different generation and part of the country than me, and our lives would be totally different ! I don't feel the need to treat everyone Irish as unduly worthy of my attentions and support, and think it is slavishly peculiar to do so.

I don't really understand this, I mean how do you know you wouldnt get on with Seamus O'flaherty if you have never spoken to him, surely some of your irish friends over here are from a different part of the country and a different generation? My point was you inherently look out for your own, as we have a common bond as such, therefore you do find that quite a lot of your friends are irish because you share a lot of things in common with them/same sort of characteristics etc.

Dont worry I still have the shirt, though it didnt work in sweden

Even if maribor said dont bring an apple to the orchard.....and the pulling part, you have Pamela at the end of the day, I am pretty sure you go running back to her in times of need

**NY Hoop** · 25/04/2007, 1:47 PM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

Another sweeping generalisation.

Many of the fans I meet in the EL watch football all over the world and always incorporate into their travels (as I do).

Mostly because they are in it for the football, not for the razmataz and Sky-ification that has made Premiership football a largely sterile experience.

Totally agree with your points.

Cant understand any Irish person that wants to see an english side playing another side and wanting them to win or lose. It doesnt make any difference. It's simply not relevant.

Granted I will look to see if Doyle scores or whatever but only with the same mild interest to see if its gonna rain. It doesnt bother me.

I look on with genuine pity the hordes here who "support" any english club. They do not have the slightest clue about the game or football culture. Their opinions are worthless.

KOH

**paul_oshea** · 25/04/2007, 1:47 PM

oh ya DCFC_Steve start deleting stuff from your inbox here on foot.ie. You might have had your shirt back by now if you did!!!

**paul_oshea** · 25/04/2007, 1:51 PM

I look on with genuine pity the hordes here who "support" any english club. They do not have the slightest clue about the game or football culture. Their opinions are worthless

ah the saviour, come thy who preech save those poor lost souls

LMAO good one

Granted I will look to see if Doyle scores or whatever but only with the same mild interest to see if its gonna rain. It doesnt bother me.

when you decide to go to an ireland match do you also check if it is raining before you decide whether you will go or not? When doyle scores and scores again and again, do you not think it benefits our national team, mais non? So, I ask again do you look at Doyle scoring the same way as you look at whether it rains ( match days or not

) on any given day? OR do you just not care for the Irish team either way.

I look on with genuine pity the hordes here who "support" any EL club and dont support/care for their National Team. They do not have the slightest clue about the game or football culture, its all lowly tribalism really. :8

**tetsujin1979** · 25/04/2007, 1:53 PM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

I look on with genuine pity the hordes here who "support" any english club. They do not have the slightest clue about the game or football culture. Their opinions are worthless.

KOH

So, by extension, anyone who doesn't support an english club is totally clued in on the game and football culture, and their opinions are worthwhile?
Give me a break.

**NeilMcD** · 25/04/2007, 2:00 PM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Totally agree with your points.

Cant understand any Irish person that wants to see an english side playing another side and wanting them to win or lose. It doesnt make any difference. It's simply not relevant.

Granted I will look to see if Doyle scores or whatever but only with the same mild interest to see if its gonna rain. It doesnt bother me.

I look on with genuine pity the hordes here who "support" any english club. They do not have the slightest clue about the game or football culture. Their opinions are worthless.

KOH

I have met people who go to EL week in and week out who dont know anything about football as in they don't know how the game should be played or how you open a team up etc. Fair play to them for going week in week out and they are proper fans. I have also met guys who only watch football on Sky and go to the odd game or maybe make trips ever so often to England and their knowledge of football is top class because they play it and they know their football, but they are not proper football fans. What you say about is rather simplistic in my opinion. Who are you to judge if someones opinion is worthless or not, you can argue with it or debate it but to dismiss it outright is not a very good argument at all.

**dcfcsteve** · 25/04/2007, 2:11 PM

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

You can't be serious? You should have seen the parties in Spain when Fernando Alonso won the championship. Or the pubs in this country when Ken Doherty won the World Championships. I absolutely loved to see Damien Duff destroy players in the Champions league during his first couple of season at Chelsea. Nakamura has been all over the front pages of the Japanese papers over the last few days. It's just part of being patriotic. How is it peculiar?

Firstly - there's a huge difference with individual team sports like Motor Racing, athletics, Boxing etc, as people there are viewed as representing their country when they play in those sports. Just think Barry McGuigan, Damon Hill, Tim Henman etc.

Secondly - I would have no problem wanting Seamus O'Flaherty to do well playing for Ireland, as that is what patriotic people do. They support people when they are representing their country, - as is considered the case with Alonso in motor sports, Ken Doherty in snooker etc.

But to then demand that that obvious patriotism be slavishly transfered over to team players when they are not representing their country, and particularly when they are operating at a sub-optimal level in their sport, is what is peculiar. Does that now mean that you should support Alonso or Doherty when they take part in the annual parents race in their kid's school sports day, for example ?? I mean - it'd be unpatriotic not to do so... !

I don't see what is supposedly so patriotic about being unduly concerned about the proverbial Seamus O'Flaherty when he's playing club football for a second rate English team. Yeah - I'd prefer he did well than badly, but overall I wouldn't really care either way. Patriotism would then rightly kick-in when he played for his country.

As with Duff - he's a joy to watch, no matter what nationality he is. The fact that he's Irish, is a key player for the national squad, and plys his clubs trade at the very top of the footballing tree makes it much more sensible to take an interestv in his progress thna Seamus O'Flaherty's latest transfer to Leyton Orient.

**NY Hoop** · 25/04/2007, 2:12 PM

It's my opinion and if you disagree fair enough. Not preaching at all. IMO you have to go and actually watch your local side like people all over the world generally do.

I only go to the odd Ireland away game. If it's not raining even better! But by all means wind yourselves up about it

KOH

**dcfcsteve** · 25/04/2007, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by youngirish

dcfcSteve why do you gravitate towards Derry? Would it be because you grew up in the locale, watched them play from a young age, know people and have an affinity with people who also share your love for them?

We support Ireland for the same reason but on an International level instead of a national one.

We are not so different you and I young Skywalker.

Nationalism is the way to go man. Tribalism is so Stone Age.

I agree with everything you've said.

But I fail to see how any of the above means I should be unduly concerned with the progress of Paddy O'Potato at Doncaster Rovers, just because he's Irish. To do so would be tribalistic, which as you suggest is wrong.

Likewise - I don't see what is so 'nationalistic' about caring for a footballer at a 2-bit English club. Am I now supposed to follow with interest the employment fortunes of the tens of thousands of Irish builders in London, out of some misplaced sense of what nationalism is...? Why are they less worthy of my attentions or 'nationalism' that some third-rate footballer ?

**paul_oshea** · 25/04/2007, 2:19 PM

But to then demand that that obvious patriotism be slavishly transfered over to team players when they are not representing their country, and particularly when they are operating at a sub-optimal level in their sport, is what is peculiar

not if they are doing well at team-level if that ensures they play well for their country, which it usually does. Its a knock on effect. It is certainly a little different than comparing to check whether its going to rain, having said that i hate when it rains and i do take quite an interest in when its going to rain, so horses for courses maybe

**NeilMcD** · 25/04/2007, 2:24 PM

C'mon people, now
smile on your brother,
ev'ry-body get together,
try to love one another right now.

**NY Hoop** · 25/04/2007, 2:29 PM

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

C'mon people, now
smile on your brother,
ev'ry-body get together,
try to love one another right now.

You, David Norris and Derek Mooney can sing that in dalier

KOH

**paul_oshea** · 25/04/2007, 2:34 PM

Likewise - I don't see what is so 'nationalistic' about caring for a footballer at a 2-bit English club. Am I now supposed to follow with interest the employment fortunes of the tens of thousands of Irish builders in London, out of some misplaced sense of what nationalism is...? Why are they less worthy of my attentions or 'nationalism' that some third-rate footballer

See, here is what I thought people were getting p'eed off about, the fact that irish people were bandwagon jumpers and gloryhunters/fair weather supporters, isn't it "more genunie football supporter" to look out for the lower clubs rather than just keep an eye out on the big clubs or players making the big difference....its certainly a fine line thats for sure.

**youngirish** · 25/04/2007, 2:38 PM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

I agree with everything you've said.

But I fail to see how any of the above means I should be unduly concerned with the progress of Paddy O'Potato at Doncaster Rovers, just because he's Irish. To do so would be tribalistic, which as you suggest is wrong.

Likewise - I don't see what is so 'nationalistic' about caring for a footballer at a 2-bit English club. Am I now supposed to follow with interest the employment fortunes of the tens of thousands of Irish builders in London, out of some misplaced sense of what nationalism is...? Why are they less worthy of my attentions or 'nationalism' that some third-rate footballer ?

I myself as you am not overly bothered how Paddy Potato plays but as for Sunderland they have a few players who easily could have more than a passing part to play in next seasons qualification games for Euro 2008. Kavanagh, Stokes, Miller and Muprhy may all be involved at some stage and this is ignoring the possibility of Keane doing what he has done all year and buying Irish in the summer.

For this reason I like to see them doing well as I also like to see Newcastle, Reading, Celtic and Wolves do well.

**Erstwhile B�z** · 25/04/2007, 2:39 PM

I've no problem calling myself a Liverpool fan and investing vast amounts of emotional capital in them, since I was a child. I don't make wild reasons up as to why I follow them (any more); pure self-preservation or gloryhunting helped me pick Liverpool out of the limited choice on the road (United and Everton the other two main ones). The bedspreads and mugs and calendars, etc., followed.

League of Ireland, though, = local pride and (despite long periods of shameful neglect on my part) live football, the match experience; it occupies a completely different sector of my brain. I've only seen Liverpool live once (friendly against Shels years ago) and don't really have any inkling to go over and watch them as they don't -- can't -- exist in that part of my mind for me.

It's like following two different sports, almost.

**Erstwhile B�z** · 25/04/2007, 2:45 PM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

You, David Norris and Derek Mooney can sing that in dalier

KOH

Obsessed.

**osarusan** · 25/04/2007, 3:04 PM

Originally Posted by NY Hoop

I look on with genuine pity the hordes here who "support" any english club. They do not have the slightest clue about the game or football culture. Their opinions are worthless.

KOH

How about those who support both an eL team and a foreign club?

**eirebhoy** · 25/04/2007, 3:14 PM

Originally Posted by dcfcsteve

Firstly - there's a huge difference with individual team sports like Motor Racing, athletics, Boxing etc, as people there are viewed as representing their country when they play in those sports. Just think Barry McGuigan, Damon Hill, Tim Henman etc.

Secondly - I would have no problem wanting Seamus O'Flaherty to do well playing for Ireland, as that is what patriotic people do. They support people when they are representing their country, - as is considered the case with Alonso in motor sports, Ken Doherty in snooker etc.

But to then demand that that obvious patriotism be slavishly transfered over to team players when they are not representing their country, and particularly when they are operating at a sub-optimal level in their sport, is what is peculiar. Does that now mean that you should support Alonso or Doherty when they take part in the annual parents race in their kid's school sports day, for example ?? I mean - it'd be unpatriotic not to do so... !

I don't see what is supposedly so patriotic about being unduly concerned about the proverbial Seamus O'Flaherty when he's playing club football for a second rate English team. Yeah - I'd prefer he did well than badly, but overall I wouldn't really care either way. Patriotism would then rightly kick-in when he played for his country.

As with Duff - he's a joy to watch, no matter what nationality he is. The fact that he's Irish, is a key player for the national squad, and plys his clubs trade at the very top of the footballing tree makes it much more sensible to take an interestv in his progress thna Seamus O'Flaherty's latest transfer to Leyton Orient.

I can't agree with that at all. Doherty is representing us as much as Duff is. He's not playing snooker for his country. Alonso isn't racing for Spain. Bernard Dunne isn't fighting for Ireland. Nakamura wasn't playing for Japan on Sunday.

If Duff wasn't Irish I wouldn't really care less about him. In his first season in the Champions league I wouldn't miss a Chelsea match. It made me proud to think that an Irishman was literally the star of a top team at the top stage.

I can't remember where this Seamus O'Flaherty chap came into it but the reason we follow these players is because we follow Ireland. If you knew there was a genius playing for Derry U-16's you'd surely be following his progress. I don't really care how Willie Boland is doing at Hartlepool but there's a difference between a 31 year old in League 2 and the progress of the Irish players at Sunderland.