When did your history begin?

[galwayhoop]

Both "international" teams on this island — and yes, given the whole FAI poaching/GFA nationality/passport 'scandal' complications it's not simply a jurisdiction matter but rather one of a de facto national nationalist team versus a de facto national unionist team — therefore, can go and have a big sheite for themselves. Neither of them represent any part of any decent Irishman that should with good conscience be shown off on a world stage.

i am happy to support Ireland with good conscience and feel that I am a decent Irishman.

Who represents you? Bohs??

[lopez]

The breakaway FAI was not a response to partition. The Anglo-Irish Treaty, agreeing partition, was signed in November 1921. The FAI was formed in June 1921. While initially seeing itself as a rival to the IFA - a sort of American League to the National League - with hindsight, it was more an attempt to divide football along national/sectarian lines - 1923 FAI Cup winners Alton United were from Belfast. While shades of this remains, the FAI was forced to fit itself in with partition by the Liverpool Conference, and rename itself the FAIFS.

Incidentally, it's not just a shared history, but shared shirts too. Both Irelands before and immediately after WW2 wore identical 'rugby' shirts in games with the shield and shamrocks as the badge.

[historynut]

Not willing to get into debate,but would strongly reccomend a read of "ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL and society in pre-partition Ireland" by Neal Garnham to get an understanding and the events that lead to the establishment of the FAI. Also just what length's were taken, that almost resulted in Ireland being reunified at soccer for Internationals, similar to Rugby,Cricket and Hockey. Sure copies can be obtained from a good EASONS.

[Lionel Ritchie]

Sorry, Lionel, but we've hardly room on our bandwagon for all the Northerners who are trying to scamble aboard these days, never mind Mexicans (even wee ones).

Didn't phrase it particularly well. The general point I was driving at would've been better explained with an example. So here's the example. If there had been a World Cup in the years prior to the split and if Ireland had won the World Cup in that era -I would expect both teams to have a gold star over the crests on their shirts.

[youngirish]

Sorry, Lionel, but we've hardly room on our bandwagon for all the Northerners who are trying to scamble aboard these days, never mind Mexicans (even wee ones).

So whilst I don't blame you for trying, I'm afraid you'll have to support your own team. Otherwise, you'll only come across like e.g. an Evertonian claiming "ownership" over Liverpool, which thinking runs contrary to all of Nature's Laws and will bring down the wrath of the Football God Ziggur-Zaggur upon your head...

What's this Mexican thing anyway? Is it that you consider us a poorer, less economically developed, more backward region south of your border as in you are the United States to our Mexico?

If so I think a better, more modern comparison would be with the 2 Koreas. To the north of us is the far more econimically deficient, paranoid, isolated, small minded group with their cult leader (Paisley) running the show compared to our modern, economically successfull, foward looking nation. So in future it would be more accurate for you to refer to us as South Koreans than Mexicans.

As for supporting Northern Ireland. The majority of wee Mexicans as you put it that I know don't even care how the North team does with the exception of a small handful that like to see you lose (after reading your posts for the last couple of years and those of your countrymen on your preferred haunt ourweecountry.com I've drifted from the former group to the latter). I also doubt too many Nationalists up north are jumping back on board following your brief (6 months) succesful period so I don't know where all these extra fans are coming from.

Sweden away, Spain away, even Latvia away? Sanchez taking the Fulham job full time (it'll happen). The fall is coming EalingGreen, not that you have any great heights to fall form. You haven't qualified for anything in over 2 decades.

On the plus side after all your slagging a few months ago we are back on track after beating those powers of world football Wales 1-0 at home. The team that hammered you in the same fixture just last season.

[dcfcsteve]

What's this Mexican thing anyway? Is it that you consider us a poorer, less economically developed, more backward region south of your border as in you are the United States to our Mexico?

If so I think a better, more modern comparison would be with the 2 Koreas. To the north of us is the far more econimcally deficient, paranoid, isolated, small minded group with their cult leader (Paisley) running the show compared to our modern, economically successful, foward looking nation. So in future it would be more accurate for you to refer to us as South Koreans than Mexicans.

As Sadaam Hussein said to the devil in 'South park - The Movie' : "Awhhhh ; take it easy fella !".

It's 'Mexicans' because you're south of the border.

Some people may like to associate the relative economic situations that existed prior to c. 1995 as the reasaon for the name, but geography is the main reason. Nationalists in particular would take no real joy at using a name that berated the south in relation to the north (apart, of course, from 'Free State Barstewards'..... )

[EalingGreen]

What's this Mexican thing anyway? Is it that you consider us a poorer, less economically developed, more backward region south of your border as in you are the United States to our Mexico?

If so I think a better, more modern comparison would be with the 2 Koreas. To the north of us is the far more econimcally deficient, paranoid, isolated, small minded group with their cult leader (Paisley) running the show compared to our modern, economically successful, foward looking nation. So in future it would be more accurate for you to refer to us as South Koreans than Mexicans.

As for supporting Northern Ireland. The majority of wee Mexicans as you put it that I know don't even care how the North team does with the exception of a small handful that like to see you lose (after reading your posts for the last couple of years and those of your countrymen on your preferred haunt ourweecountry.com I've drifted from the former group to the latter). I also doubt too many Nationalists up north are jumping back on board following your brief (6 months) succesful period so I don't know where all these extra fans are coming from.

Sweden away, Spain away, even Latvia away? Sanchez taking the Fulham job full time (it'll happen). The fall is coming EalingGreen, not that you have any great heights to fall form. You haven't qualified for anything in over 2 decades.

On the plus side after all your slagging a few months ago we are back on track after beating those powers of world football Wales 1-0 at home. The team that hammered you in the same fixture just last season.

To quote DCFC Steve:
"Awhhhh ; take it easy fella !"

My (wee) Mexican quip was an in-joke which I'll leave to Lionel R to reveal, if he wishes.

And the previous post of mine to which you refer (USA/NI vs Mexico/ROI) was genuinely meant to be humourous - even if no-one else may actually have thought it funny.

Anyhow, as I thought I made clear earlier on this thread, I really don't wish this to degenerate into a Yah! Boo! Sucks! slanging match of the "My Team's Better Than Yours" variety. Instead, I opened it purely to try to learn the attitude of ROI fans towards the (united) Ireland team prior to partition. That's all.

So, any thoughts, YoungIrish? (After you've calmed down, that is )

[EalingGreen]

Didn't phrase it particularly well. The general point I was driving at would've been better explained with an example. So here's the example. If there had been a World Cup in the years prior to the split and if Ireland had won the World Cup in that era -I would expect both teams to have a gold star over the crests on their shirts.

Fair enough.

[ifk101]

And the previous post of mine to which you refer (USA/NI vs Mexico/ROI) was genuinely meant to be humourous - even if no-one else may actually have thought it funny.

So the comparison is between a country with no real footballing tradition (USA) and a country who's national sport is presumably football (Mexico). I suppose this answers your question "When did your history begin?"

[Lionel Ritchie]

My (wee) Mexican quip was an in-joke which I'll leave to Lionel R to reveal, if he wishes.

Pretty certain I've revealed it more than once here already -but just in case here goes -I was a registered member of the OWC forum before I happened upon foot.ie, waccoe or anywhere I'm likely to be found chucking my orb about.

Of my own free will and volition I took the handle "Wee Mexican" on the French Canadians board (OWC).

However when I then joined foot.ie the "Wee Mexican" tag seemed ...kind of pointless actually so I revealed my true identity ...the all singing all dancing (on the ceiling) blind bird groping lecturer/pervert Lionel Ritchie.

[EalingGreen]

So the comparison is between a country with no real footballing tradition (USA) and a country who's national sport is presumably football (Mexico). I suppose this answers your question "When did your history begin?"

Arguably the Mexican national game is Pok-a-Tok:

http://www.greatdreams.com/mayan/mayan-games.htm

This was a brutal game, involving serious injury, death or even ritual killing of the losers, which was played by the indigenous people, the Mayans, long before football was introduced by the colonisers. Ring any bells?
(Clue: For "Maya" read "Mayo"?)

Anyhow, to get back to the original point of the thread, am I to take it that as an ROI fan, you feel no affinity towards the "Ireland" team prior to partition? Or, since it was an all-Ireland affair, maybe you feel "ownership" in the same way as NI fans do?

Just curious.

[galwayhoop]

If so I think a better, more modern comparison would be with the 2 Koreas. To the north of us is the far more econimcally deficient, paranoid, isolated, small minded group with their cult leader (Paisley) running the show compared to our modern, economically successful, foward looking nation. So in future it would be more accurate for you to refer to us as South Koreans than Mexicans.

North Koreans - classic

[youngirish]

Anyhow, as I thought I made clear earlier on this thread, I really don't wish this to degenerate into a Yah! Boo! Sucks! slanging match of the "My Team's Better Than Yours" variety. Instead, I opened it purely to try to learn the attitude of ROI fans towards the (united) Ireland team prior to partition. That's all.

So, any thoughts, YoungIrish? (After you've calmed down, that is )

Just not too fond the wee Mexican jibe EalingGreen. I doubt if I passed a similar remark (North Koreans) on ourweecountry.com would it go down too well.

As for the serious question I consider the current ROI team to have been born post the formation of the Irish Free State in the same way as I see my current country to have been formed (re-formed) at this same time. I also consider the current Northern Ireland team to have been formed at that same time though I'm aware for about 20 years after this period players could and often were capped by both teams.

The previous team that existed prior to the Irish Free State was to me a different body than both today that represented a different country (or in actuality a region of the UK and not an independent nation) that no longer exists. For this reason I wouldn't associate it with either organisation though I can understand why people in the North would more closely identify it with their team than we would in the South as their team in essence is still one of four representing the UK whereas ours represents a different independent nation.

For the record I know I'm in the minority but I'd prefer if all our sporting bodies were kept seperate until the day a united, independent Ireland was a reality (if ever) though tbh I'm not too bothered about the other sports as I'm not a big fan of any bar my beloved football. It just looks a bit silly to me when I see that silly Shamrock flag representing us in the cricket or when I hear that rubbish Phil Coulter song in the Rugby instead of Amhran na bhFiann. I appreciate, however, that with the current situation it's not appropriate for us to be singing our national anthem or flying our tricolour at certain times in the unified sports. Anyone agree with me?

[ifk101]

Anyhow, to get back to the original point of the thread, am I to take it that as an ROI fan, you feel no affinity towards the "Ireland" team prior to partition? Or, since it was an all-Ireland affair, maybe you feel "ownership" in the same way as NI fans do?

Well I don't refer to the team I support as ROI. I call them Ireland. Does that answer your question? I also don't refer to the Ireland C team as NI and, like all Irish teams, I hope Ireland, Ireland B and Ireland C win all their matches. I can understand that as your loyalities lie with Ireland C you take great pride in the wee victories against more illustrious counterparts as this is seen as justification for a Ireland C team. But as a supporter of Ireland, you can understand that I don't have any rivalry with the Ireland C team. On the contrary, I want them to do well.

The "ownership feeling" you mention is not something I can relate to or tend to dwell on - I don't see its relevancy in the modern day. But if I did live in pre 1920 Ireland and if I as a pre 1920 man had the same values as a 2007 Irishman, I would associated myself with a United Ireland football team - without question. But alas my focus is on the now - and my hope is that Ireland wins its next qualifying game. As you know, our manager is Stan the Man and I hope you can undersand Stan's managerial skills give me more worry than the origins of the national side.

And as an aside, the Korean comparison is much more apt that the USA and Mexico - esp. given the high number of defectors from the North to the South, and not vice versa ...

[EalingGreen]

Just not too fond the wee Mexican jibe EalingGreen. I doubt if I passed a similar remark (North Koreans) on ourweecountry.com would it go down too well.
As for the serious question I consider the current ROI team to have been born post the formation of the Irish Free State in the same way as I see my current country to have been formed (re-formed) at this same time. I also consider the current Northern Ireland team to have been formed at that same time though I'm aware for about 20 years after this period players could and often were capped by both teams.

The previous team that existed prior to the Irish Free State was to me a different body than both today that represented a different country (or in actuality a region of the UK and not an independent nation) that no longer exists. For this reason I wouldn't associate it with either organisation though I can understand why people in the North would more closely identify it with their team than we would in the South as their team in essence is still one of four representing the UK whereas ours represents a different independent nation.

For the record I know I'm in the minority but I'd prefer if all our sporting bodies were kept seperate until the day a united, independent Ireland was a reality (if ever) though tbh I'm not too bothered about the other sports as I'm not a big fan of any bar my beloved football. It just looks a bit silly to me when I see that silly Shamrock flag representing us in the cricket or when I hear that rubbish Phil Coulter song in the Rugby instead of Amhran na bhFiann. I appreciate, however, that with the current situation it's not appropriate for us to be singing our national anthem or flying our tricolour at certain times in the unified sports. Anyone agree with me?

Re the "Mexican" jibe, your sensitivity reminds me of the old story of the Duchess of Devonshire conducting her annual tour of the Estate, the only opportunity she got to meet the plebs who worked the land for her. She came to one old boy and asked him what he was doing.
"I'm shifting this ere dung from here over to there, Your Ladyship. And when I've finished with that, I'll shift that there dung from over there to over here. And by the time I've finished that, I suppose the cows will have produced some more dung for me to shift..."
Her sensibilities offended, the Duchess said to the farmer's wife:
"Can't you persuade him to use a term a little less coarse?"
To which the wife replied:
"Oh no, it's taken me 40 years of marriage to teach him to say 'Dung', your Ladyship!"

Anyhow, your North Korea analogy is a good one - I'm just old enough to remember being thrilled by the exploits of Pak Do Ik and the boys from "Our Wee Socialist Country" in the World Cup in 1966.
Perhaps you should post it on owc - I daresay you'll get the usual abuse from the usual suspects, but if I don't let similar treatment put me off this Board, there's no reason why you can't withstand the same over there. I've no doubt most of the guys will appreciate the joke.

As for the substance of your post - there is no "right" answer to an issue like this and I make no comment; I am merely curious to know what other people think.

[pineapple stu]

So whilst I don't blame you for trying, I'm afraid you'll have to support your own team. Otherwise, you'll only come across like e.g. an Evertonian claiming "ownership" over Liverpool, which thinking runs contrary to all of Nature's Laws and will bring down the wrath of the Football God Ziggur-Zaggur upon your head...

The Everton-Liverpool comparison doesn't work in this case though. Everton and Liverpool are clubs, and any one club is clearly different to another and was created as such, so one can't claim the other's history (unless you're MK Dons).

Ireland and the North, however, are states (replace with whatever phrase you deem most appropriate), with the national football teams arising out of them. So if you view the 32 counties as one state (which obviously many RoI people would), you can definitely claim a stake in the history of the "united" Irish team pre-1921.

[Jerry The Saint]

Oscar: Both my parents were born in Mexico, and they moved to the United States a year before I was born, so I grew up in the United States... my parents were Mexican.

Michael Scott: Wow, that is a great story. That's the American dream right there, right? Um, let me ask you, is there a term besides 'Mexican' that you prefer? Something less offensive

[dcfcsteve]

Arguably the Mexican national game is Pok-a-Tok:

http://www.greatdreams.com/mayan/mayan-games.htm

This was a brutal game, involving serious injury, death or even ritual killing of the losers, which was played by the indigenous people, the Mayans, long before football was introduced by the colonisers. Ring any bells?
(Clue: For "Maya" read "Mayo"?)

To be fair to the Mayans - whilst there obviously weren't national boundaries in their pre-and-mid Conquistador days, if they were to be assigned any contemporary nationality they'd be more Guatemalan, Belizan and Honduran than Mexican. Only the very southern corner of Mexico (the Yucatan) was Mayan.

The peopel indigenous to the majority of Mexico were the Aztecs.

Whether the Aztecs played an ancient version of football I don't know (the Central American travels didn't take me far enough north to find out.... )

[EalingGreen]

Well I don't refer to the team I support as ROI. I call them Ireland. Does that answer your question? I also don't refer to the Ireland C team as NI and, like all Irish teams, I hope Ireland, Ireland B and Ireland C win all their matches. I can understand that as your loyalities lie with Ireland C you take great pride in the wee victories against more illustrious counterparts as this is seen as justification for a Ireland C team. But as a supporter of Ireland, you can understand that I don't have any rivalry with the Ireland C team. On the contrary, I want them to do well.

The "ownership feeling" you mention is not something I can relate to or tend to dwell on - I don't see its relevancy in the modern day. But if I did live in pre 1920 Ireland and if I as a pre 1920 man had the same values as a 2007 Irishman, I would associated myself with a United Ireland football team - without question. But alas my focus is on the now - and my hope is that Ireland wins its next qualifying game. As you know, our manager is Stan the Man and I hope you can undersand Stan's managerial skills give me more worry than the origins of the national side.

And as an aside, the Korean comparison is much more apt that the USA and Mexico - esp. given the high number of defectors from the North to the South, and not vice versa ...

Thank you for that second paragraph - very interesting. And your "Korean defectors" quip is a good one, too! (Though I hardly think anyone opting for ROI over NI could be described as a "Korea move" the way things are at present )

As for your opening paragraph:
http://www.msnemotions.org/emoticons/uploads/sleepy.gif

[dcfcsteve]

so one can't claim the other's history (unless you're MK Dons).

Even the Dirty Dons Franchise FC can no longer claim the Wimbledon history - they have officially relinguished any right over the FA Cup and previous honours to AFC Wimbledon, the true heirs of Wimbledon FC.