Can anyone say this isn't stupid?

[GavinZac]

well your signature says
Trust me, im usually right.


But I disagree and am dissapointed in your attitute towards an Gaeilge.
Notice how most of the people are not agreeing with you...?

But then they arent biased in any way. How is Ballyvourney these days?

[Erstwhile Bóz]

unsurprising, given that you can't communicate meaningfully with the vast majority of Irish people unless you resort to English: government is a reflection of self.

The de facto policy of successive governments since the foundation of this state to force Irish-speaking people to communicate with officialdom through English a failure on their part, as much as it would be a failure to expect Mr. GavinZac to communicate with them through Irish whether you could understand it comfortably or not.

officially, legally, whatever, we are supposedly both irish speaking (*cough*) and english speaking. if someone attempted to remove the irish name from a purely english speaking area, there would be havoc. However, head-up-arse councillors can make undemocratic decisions like removing the english names of towns such as Ballyvourney this week, safe in the knowledge that any attempt to reason with them can be waved away in the name of "culture".

I am afraid that this, buddy, shows you up as being massively ignorant of the legislation in question. You feign to invoke the law ("officially, legally, whatever, we are supposedly both irish speaking (*cough*) and english speaking") to claim that rights are being trodden upon. I suggest that you read the relevant ("officially, legally, whatever") legislation, i.e. the Official Languages Act 2003 (part 5). It'll be well worth your while as there are things in there and in the Act as a whole that will make you sick to your stomach; you'll love it. Cough.

Furthermore, the English name of Ballyvourney has not been removed; certainly, councillors -- no matter where their heads were -- wouldn't be at the bottom of it even if it was. I suggest you research this topic a little more, the better to make your accusations. There is something to what you're blustering about but you display a complete lack of the basic facts other than it appears to involve Irish versus English, which seems to be enough for you.

we would make that decision. the fact of the matter is that for the vast majority of pupils currently legally bound to study irish, it is an entire waste of time. the value of not learning the language is the ability to learn something else. call me spartan, but surely the ages of 3-10 are when children should be learning a useful second language that will enable them to converse fluently in a situation beneficial to themselves such as travelling or working abroad, or foreign-language-based customer service, the way that occurs in continental europe and asia, and later should they choose to spend their time studying something "romantic and sentimental", they can choose that without impinging on those who would rather focus on something more beneficial?

That is preposterous. We discard the teaching of one of the two official languages of the state in favour of what? "A useful second language that will enable them to converse fluently in a situation beneficial to themselves such as travelling or working abroad"? How shall we decide which language we pick and with which country we fabricate this bizarre link for all of Ireland's schoolchildren? French? What about those who think they want their 3-10 year olds to grow up to live and work in Spanish-speaking countries? Or do you envision armies of primary-school language teachers and language labs in every prefab primary in the country, one for each language of the EU?

And if it is your contention that it is Irish taking up space on the curriculum that somehow prevents students studying the languages they want, then I'd like to see you back it up. Personally I think it's affecting P.E. And Civics.

if you're imagining my posts with a sort of sneer attached, you've got me pitched wrong.

I admit that I am, and I must have you extremely wrong because it's ear-to-ear sneer from here.

I presume here you're trying to imply mass-media is somehow representative of the english language. again, you seem fearful to remove language from culture lest it look naked and utilitarian.

And you are equally fearful of admitting any link at all between the two lest language look anything more than naked and utilitarian! I am open to the suggestion that the truth is somewhere in between; in fact I am sure of it. I have never heard such a complete denial of any link between language and culture before, ever.

You don't have to defend yourselves, to me anyway. Just stop punching above your weight, because as trade unions often find out, there is a certain point at which joe public stops seeing the glory of what you do and spots the demands you are making.

"Just stop punching above your weight"? That strikes me as the instruction of a sneering snob.

What are these demands "we" are making? When did we make them? Who did we demand them of? How is Joe these days?

Oh, and disparaging comparisons to trades unions? I see.

[kingdom hoop]

clearly there are areas of the issue where i either didnt express myself well or you've misconstrued it. theres a lot of "no"s up there.

I'm glad to see you disagreed with the,in my mind, rubbish you implied earlier in the discussion. It now appears that your main gripe is that it is a waste of time in schools, shouldnt be obligatory and therefore it's status should be demoted in our Constitution;

yes, yes, most profoundly yes, for the majority of people who reach 25 barely knowing anything beyond the "an bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithrais" mantra, yes.
obviously there are some who want to learn it; off with them. dont force me or my kids to do it.

How much extra maths do you learn after the basics? How much French can the average student speak, do they think its a great language? If a subject isn't being learned properly then we should look at the syllabus etc first and not the subject itself. In school there is a general air of disenchantment with every subject. For the students with problems do they think, from the age of 6, the language is so useless they slip into a state of inertia, or is it that teaching methods contrive against them? In my view its more likely to be the latter. Should it be mandatory? Probably not for the Leaving Cert, the same as any subject. But at that stage students should have a decent grasp of the basics and can be left off into the world with an appreciation of the language.

Whatever about the language itself being a worthy constituent of your interpretation of Irish culture there is a culture based around the language that you gloss over. TG4, RnaG, Seachtain na Gaeilge, Scór maybe even Macnas are all very popular offshoots stemming from Irish, and as well as Gaeltacht areas, show that there is a culture dependent on the language.

well your signature says
Trust me, im usually right.

I'm beginning to wonder about that one, it doesn't hold true in this thread anyway. I think it's a kind of 'I'm right because you're wrong' thing that only lasts for the duration of a retort

[osarusan]

That is preposterous. We discard the teaching of one of the two official languages of the state in favour of what? "A useful second language that will enable them to converse fluently in a situation beneficial to themselves such as travelling or working abroad"? How shall we decide which language we pick and with which country we fabricate this bizarre link for all of Ireland's schoolchildren? French? What about those who think they want their 3-10 year olds to grow up to live and work in Spanish-speaking countries? Or do you envision armies of primary-school language teachers and language labs in every prefab primary in the country, one for each language of the EU?

To be honest, just because you can't decide which language to choose, this doesn't make choosing a language other than Irish a bad idea.

I have no objection to Irish being left on the curriculum because of its historical and cultural significance.

To argue that it is a practical tool in our existance after leaving school is a bit fanciful I feel. I would say that a student who speaks French, or Spanish to the same schooled level as others speak Irish would find it far more useful.

Having said that, lots of stuff we learn in school had limited use after leaving school. In fact, I think the most important thing you learn in school is learning how to learn, if you follow me.

[Block G Raptor]

This Isn't Stupid ...........There said it

[ollie]

But then they arent biased in any way.

Well you don't have much support for your gripe in this thread anway.

On schooling:
The few marks for Irish in the LC isn't much.its definitely not 10% of what you don't get.It depends from subject to subject and obviously if you get a high mark you'll get very little.Its not as much as an advantage as people think.

What is a bit unfair is that some people are brought up in Irish and obviously a lot more aren't and they both do the same paper but don't know what the soloution is tbh.Make it optional for the LC?i'm not too sure.Personally i wouldn't like to see that happen.1 positive step is that the oral exam is accounting for 40% of the overall exam in the near future.It will make it a little more relevenat and useful to people.

How is Ballyvourney these days?

It was fine the last time i was there.Still standing.why do you ask?

[Erstwhile Bóz]

To be honest, just because you can't decide which language to choose, this doesn't make choosing a language other than Irish a bad idea.

Learning other languages is of course a great idea. Picking a language in place of one of the two national languages of this state to teach in every school in the state to every schoolchild in the state from the age of entry would be a bizarre idea, especially given the (nominal) commitment of every government since 1922 to preserve and promote the Irish language.

And of course despite Irish using sooooo much bandwidth on the curriculum, people do choose to learn other languages in school, though the take-up is pretty poor apart from French. Important-/useful-languagewise, of some 50,000 students who sat the Leaving last year roughly 27.7k sat French, 7.6k sat German, 2.2k sat Spanish, and 242 sat Italian (a higher percentage failing both of the prime candidates, the big-hitters, French and German, than Irish -- which of those languages will we teach the country from infancy?).

Some learn them very well and are inspired to go and study the language further and maybe visit the relevant country, just as there are students who learn Irish well and go off down the Gaeltacht off their own bat. Some fail in flames. Most don't give a crap either way and just want the points. This is what happens at the moment.

[GavinZac]

Learning other languages is of course a great idea. Picking a language in place of one of the two national languages of this state to teach in every school in the state to every schoolchild in the state from the age of entry would be a bizarre idea, especially given the (nominal) commitment of every government since 1922 to preserve and promote the Irish language.

so its a case of "well its just always been like that. what can we do?".

And of course despite Irish using sooooo much bandwidth on the curriculum

Any subject takes up a fairly large chunk of "bandwidth". even simply removing the subject and allocating the time to other subjects would free up time for more topics, or give the teacher more time to address individuals. heck, that'd go some way toward solving the class size issue.

people do choose to learn other languages in school, though the take-up is pretty poor apart from French.
Important-/useful-languagewise, of some 50,000 students who sat the Leaving last year roughly 27.7k sat French, 7.6k sat German, 2.2k sat Spanish, and 242 sat Italian (a higher percentage failing both of the prime candidates, the big-hitters, French and German, than Irish

whats your point? people doing irish for the leaving cert have spent 14 years doing it, i would expect them to have a higher pass rate, especially since some secondary schools simply require pupils to study french or german because they only have one foreign language french or german teacher, and irish exams tend to be based on learning off vast chunks of pre-prepared "analysis" of studied texts, rather than the entirely comprehension/composition nature of foreign language exams.

On schooling:
The few marks for Irish in the LC isn't much.its definitely not 10% of what you don't get.It depends from subject to subject and obviously if you get a high mark you'll get very little.Its not as much as an advantage as people think.

can someone clarify this then? what is (with a source, please rather than "im fairly sure" as someone said) the exact bonus schema? if it was significantly less than i think it is, it'd go far to shutting me up

What is a bit unfair is that some people are brought up in Irish and obviously a lot more aren't and they both do the same paper but don't know what the soloution is tbh. Make it optional for the LC?i'm not too sure.Personally i wouldn't like to see that happen.

out of curiousity, why? what reason is there to force irish upon students at an age where other countries are giving pupils complete choice (eg UK A Levels)

1 positive step is that the oral exam is accounting for 40% of the overall exam in the near future.It will make it a little more relevenat and useful to people.

yes getting conversational irish into the curriculum more would (hopefully) improve student's irish, as sort of a mini-gaelscoil environment. not sure how that would make irish more useful, unless those students felt inspired to actually use the language after school. also, it'd be interesting to see how it affects grades - if grades take a nose dive in the first year of 40% oral, how supportive would teachers be of it?

It was fine the last time i was there.Still standing.why do you ask?

I just miss it. Tried to find it last time and all the signs for it were gone. fairly odd.

[tricky_colour]

Trouble is which language would you use other than English?
French? German? Spanish? Polish? Russian? Italian? Chineese? Japaneese?
If you choose one over another you could be accused of favouritism, some
tourists might resent it if their language was not used, owever by choosing
Irish you avoid this situation as it will be equally imcomprehensible and
unhelpful to all visitors

[Erstwhile Bóz]

You are definitely on to something here, GavinZac. You know that you are seeing things clearly; you comprehend and appreciate a gross injustice that the ordinary people are unaware of and unexcited by. You should start a campaign of enlightenment and edumication and gather support to effect the removal of Irish from the school curriculum post haste. Free us, children and parents alike, with the power of your Truth; yea, unyoke us! End the spell — break the charm that binds so pathetically language to culture in the minds of fools and smothers up a national schooling experience which would otherwise burn golden with joyous linguistic modernity and process useful polyglot superstudents.

Your bravery is needed; you must get involved, for there seems to be dangerous apathy out there about this sick status quo. Remember: all it takes for the Irish-language lobby to triumph is for outraged casual observers of the educational system to do nothing.



Speaking of people bothering their (own) barneys: maybe the duty of finding out what exactly is the story with that damned and blasted bonus percentage for sitting examinations through Irish falls upon the person vilifying it. Kind of like the whole Official, Legal, Whatever Languages Act (2003) thing.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

I just miss it. Tried to find it last time and all the signs for it were gone. fairly odd.

How did you know he was from Ballyvourney?

[GavinZac]

How did you know he was from Ballyvourney?

The same reason I know one of the gaelscoileanna he went to

[GavinZac]

You are definitely on to something here, GavinZac. You know that you are seeing things clearly; you comprehend and appreciate a gross injustice that the ordinary people are unaware of and unexcited by. You should start a campaign of enlightenment and edumication and gather support to effect the removal of Irish from the school curriculum post haste. Free us, children and parents alike, with the power of your Truth; yea, unyoke us! End the spell — break the charm that binds so pathetically language to culture in the minds of fools and smothers up a national schooling experience which would otherwise burn golden with joyous linguistic modernity and process useful polyglot superstudents.

Your bravery is needed; you must get involved, for there seems to be dangerous apathy out there about this sick status quo. Remember: all it takes for the Irish-language lobby to triumph is for outraged casual observers of the educational system to do nothing.

charming. are you done?

Speaking of people bothering their (own) barneys: maybe the duty of finding out what exactly is the story with that damned and blasted bonus percentage for sitting examinations through Irish falls upon the person vilifying it. Kind of like the whole Official, Legal, Whatever Languages Act (2003) thing.

as the only one to post a source, from an officially (oifiguil?) commissioned website from Foras na Gaeilge, i can safely say i won't be the one trawling through the record books of the DoE. Certainly not with that attitude, young man.

[ollie]

How did you know he was from Ballyvourney?

also look at 'Location'

[Erstwhile Bóz]

also look at 'Location'

That was my point. He can no longer find Ballyvourney, apparently, because the signposts say Baile Mhúirne.

[GavinZac]

also look at 'Location'

That was my point. He can no longer find Ballyvourney, apparently, because the signposts say Baile Mhúirne.

now Amhlaoibh, I think there are other reasons for me to know you're from Ballyvourney than some cryptic clue on foot.ie

[micls]

I'm only going on what my (gaeilgóir! you can imagine that i've had these arguments on many a nothing-on-tv night) girlfriend said!

Firstly I never said that! If i said anything of the sort it would have been that I didn't know the meaning not that it didn't have one

But anyway.

For obvious reasons I disagree with pretty much most of what GZ says but I do think there is a point to be considered in making Gaeilge an optional subject in secondary school.

I honestly don't think it would have a negative affect on the growth of the language. The majority of people I know who went to english schools leave secondary school with a very basic standard of Irish which in most cases is unused and quickly forgotten.

I think if the language was made optional, those who choose it would have the benefit of being in a class with others who have some interst in speaking the language and p[robably would end up with a better standard of Irish coming from better teaching(less teachers needed so can pick the best) and better standard within the class group.

This along with proper implementation of the new curriculum in primary school could go far in changing the attitude(like GZ's) towards irish IMO.

I'm not sure who said earlier that people send kids to a gaelscoil because of love of the language rather than to give them an advantage but in my own case this wasn't the case. My dad had irish but the reason I was sent to a gaelscoil was because my parents thought it would be an advantage and I know a lot of other parents who feel the same.

From my experience, there is very little disadvantage(other than facilities) in going to a Gaelscoil but you gain the advantage of learning another language at a young age, one that has a key role in our exam structure.

I know a lot of parents who have asked me iof they should send their kids to a Gaelscoil for the same reason and I would advise them to do so.

Of course for others it is a love of the language.

*Apologies for the length of the post

[GavinZac]

I think if the language was made optional, those who choose it would have the benefit of being in a class with others who have some interst in speaking the language and p[robably would end up with a better standard of Irish coming from better teaching(less teachers needed so can pick the best) and better standard within the class group.

Thats a good point, and the people studying it could focus on a better class of literature than that story with the mentally challenged oaf, the abusive father figure, a canary and a tinker.

I'm not sure who said earlier that people send kids to a gaelscoil because of love of the language rather than to give them an advantage but in my own case this wasn't the case. My dad had irish but the reason I was sent to a gaelscoil was because my parents thought it would be an advantage and I know a lot of other parents who feel the same.

I know a lot of parents who have asked me iof they should send their kids to a Gaelscoil for the same reason and I would advise them to do so.

In all honesty though, and you're probably not the best person to ask given that you're trying to be a gaelscoil teacher, can you say that it has had any advantage to you, other than preparing you better for exams in which Irish features heavily, and your preparation to become a teacher in the same exam structure? Surely the issue then is that exam structure does not reflect the reality of what people need. For such a highly educated society, our drop out rate is astonishing, and learning irish must rank pretty highly as a contributing factor, given its difficulty and futility.

From my experience, there is very little disadvantage(other than facilities) in going to a Gaelscoil but you gain the advantage of learning another language at a young age, one that has a key role in our exam structure.

Again, thats only an advantage in terms of the exam structure. In reality, you'd probably gain more from learning Polski than Gaeilge!
Our education system should reflect the skills and attributes needed to give people a good standard of living. "Interest" subjects such as Irish and Religion should join Art and Music amongst the optional topics.

[ollie]

That was my point. He can no longer find Ballyvourney, apparently, because the signposts say Baile Mhúirne.

my bad.

now Amhlaoibh, I think there are other reasons for me to know you're from Ballyvourney than some cryptic clue on foot.ie

True enough i suoppose.

[kingdom hoop]

Irish becomes subject at Cambridge University
01/05/2007 - 11:48:33

"Irish has become an official subject at Cambridge University, it was announced today.

Cambridge will tomorrow launch its first classes in modern Irish.

While the university already teaches medieval Irish, the new addition will mean that for the first time, common, modern elements of both gaelic language and literature will be on offer for students.

Acclaimed poet Dr Louis de Paor will give a celebratory reading to mark the occasion, while the the Irish Ambassador, Daithi O’Ceallaigh, will also be present.

“Ireland is going through an era of rapid cultural change, in which it is particularly easy to lose track of where one comes from,” senior lecturer in Celtic languages and literature Dr Maire Ni Mhaonaigh said.

“As we move into more of a distinctively European future, the study of Irish has the potential to be a positive aspect of identity.”

Irish was granted official European status in January, taking its place as the 23rd language of the EU.

This means that all key EU legislation must now be translated, while provisions are also in place for the language to be spoken at EU council meetings.

Recognising the significance of the Cambridge move, the Irish Government has provided funding to the university to help make the course a reality.

Tomorrow’s launch means Cambridge is the first English university to teach both modern and medieval forms of the language.

It is also the only university anywhere that allows students to study Irish in its wider context, as one of a network of ancient languages and culture that define the heritage of these islands.

The university hopes the classes will reinforce an understanding of Irish identity not just within Ireland, but among the thousands of Diaspora spread throughout the globe.

“Learning Irish need not be related to ethnicity or family background. One of the main reasons for setting up classes at Cambridge is to stress that the study of Irish is of value for anyone interested in it for whatever reason,” added Dr Ni Mhaonaigh.

Irish Government funding has enabled the university to employ a modern Irish teacher, Dr Karrina Hollo, who has already begun classes at beginner, intermediate and advanced level.

Academics are confident the subject will not only be taken up by Irish students, but also by many non-natives who have an interest in the country’s heritage and culture."

What do you think of that Gav?