Can anyone say this isn't stupid?

[pineapple stu]

of course they are. imagine two good students, identical in every way. except pupil A is sent to a gaelscoil, pupil B is sent to a normal school. They both do well enough to get 79% in every subject.
Pupil A is awarded an A, and can now look forward to doing medicine, or astrophysics.
Pupil B is awarded a B, and can possibly be a nurse. Maybe a teacher.

What a ridiculously exaggerated analogy. Straight Bs, for example, is enough for Commerce - opens you up to accountancy, management, general business careers. I don't think that you'd get an extra 6% at 79% level; I always thought you got 10% of the mraks you didn't get, wihch would boost pupil A up to 81%.

Anyway, the pupil in the English school - assuming your theory that parents are doing it for cynical points driven reasons and not a love of the Irish language - would find it much harder to get outside help such as grinds in Irish or help from their parents, and so would actually be hindered by being sent to an Irish school out of the purely cynical motives you forward.

[GavinZac]

What a ridiculously exaggerated analogy. Straight Bs, for example, is enough for Commerce - opens you up to accountancy, management, general business careers.

what has it to do with anything? do you think it matters which particular courses the student is deprived of?

I don't think that you'd get an extra 6% at 79% level; I always thought you got 10% of the mraks you didn't get, wihch would boost pupil A up to 81%.

well, apparantly you were incorrect. and again, why does it matter? exactly what level of inequality is acceptable?

Anyway, the pupil in the English school - assuming your theory that parents are doing it for cynical points driven reasons and not a love of the Irish language

i gave it as one reason, im not saying they all do. im sure there are plenty of misguided or in-denial characters out there.

would find it much harder to get outside help such as grinds in Irish or help from their parents, and so would actually be hindered by being sent to an Irish school out of the purely cynical motives you forward.

absolute rubbish.
firstly, it should not be necessary for any student to have to take grinds unless they are truly struggling. the grinds culture is stupid guilt by parents attempting to throw money at a problem they have left fester - a lack of study. Nothing in the leaving cert curriculum is difficult enough to justify one on one sessions if the student would just bloody study while they are in school. i'll try not to go any further on that particular tangent which applies to both gaelscoils and normal schools.
secondly, you reckon the CAO can justify setting a certain percentage to apply as an advantage for the pupils choosing to "disadvantage" themselves by taking their national education through a novelty language? You can't broadly quantify for every student in the country something that is entirely subjective, differs vastly for different situations and pupils, and that rests outside the school system. Your argument is akin to saying pupils in isolated areas should get a bonus for not have as many grinds available to them in their area, or less/no access to the internet in that particular town.
these are subjective factors and the only way to justifiable include them in any life-changing decision for a child is as part of an interview process for university - which itself throws up so much subjectivity as to be ludicrous.

[kingdom hoop]

i gave it as one reason, im not saying they all do. im sure there are plenty of misguided or in-denial characters out there.

you obviously miss the point of liking any language, even given the misguided restrictive parameters you attach. giving a child the opportunity to be educated in a, ahem ahem, non-native language while still perfecting their 'mother tongue' is not to be sneezed at so naively, at least in my opinion.

The excuse? Any politician attempting to correct this apartheid-like gross infringement of human right and equality law will be shot down and ridiculed as somehow less irish than those that sat idly by.

you return to 'without irish we are less irish'.

every time you say such i just think 'well, we are definitely more with it'. obviously you give it so little credence but can you not appreciate some merit? if not then...

i'll have come to the point where it saddens me to think of people who would share your views

[pineapple stu]

what has it to do with anything? do you think it matters which particular courses the student is deprived of?

Your point clearly had nothing to do with courses they were being denied, but rather future job prospects. My reply addresses that point.

well, apparantly you were incorrect.

On the grounds of a blog? Reliable stuff.

i gave it as one reason, im not saying they all do. im sure there are plenty of misguided or in-denial characters out there.

So if you send your child to an Irish school, you're either misguided, in denial (what about, I'm not sure), or trying to screw the system? You're happy to completely ignore any other possibilities, such as a love of the language and our culture? Fair enough, but it seriously diminishes the power of your argument if you come out with repeated blinkered views like that.

firstly, it should not be necessary for any student to have to take grinds unless they are truly struggling. the grinds culture is stupid guilt by parents attempting to throw money at a problem they have left fester - a lack of study.

I agree. But it's irrelevant. The fact of the matter is grinds are taken, and those doing the exams in English have an advantage over those doing them in Irish. This dimishes the power of your argument that doing the Leaving in Irish is win-win.

Your argument is akin to saying pupils in isolated areas should get a bonus for not have as many grinds available to them in their area, or less/no access to the internet in that particular town.

No it's not. I'm not arguing for bonus points for doing your Leaving Cert in Irish, I'm arguing against our point that it's a win-win. Different thing entirely.

By the way - capitals, please!!

[GavinZac]

Your point clearly had nothing to do with courses they were being denied, but rather future job prospects. My reply addresses that point.

i named courses - nursing, teaching, medicine and astrophysics are all courses. its the last one that gives it away. not too many people earn a living just doing astrophysics.

On the grounds of a blog? Reliable stuff.

well if you're going to just dismiss it as a blog in the pejorative sense, i'll have to object. the blog in question is that of Gaelport.com, tionscnamh de chuid Chomhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge.

So if you send your child to an Irish school, you're either misguided, in denial (what about, I'm not sure)

in denial of the next bit

, or trying to screw the system? You're happy to completely ignore any other possibilities, such as a love of the language and our culture? Fair enough, but it seriously diminishes the power of your argument if you come out with repeated blinkered views like that.

again, read back over how this little tangent started. i named lots of reasons, the extra points being just one. also, i would include "love of the language and our culture" under "misguided". The very basis of my argument is that language, culture and history are separate things, so that shouldnt come as much of a shock. perhaps there are people out there who truly do love the language solely for the sake of the language itself, but given the dirth of literature available and the inherent clumsiness of the language, i'd imagine they are thin on the ground.

I agree. But it's irrelevant. The fact of the matter is grinds are taken, and those doing the exams in English have an advantage over those doing them in Irish. This dimishes the power of your argument that doing the Leaving in Irish is win-win.
No it's not. I'm not arguing for bonus points for doing your Leaving Cert in Irish, I'm arguing against our point that it's a win-win. Different thing entirely.

I didnt say it was a win-win. All I'm saying is that the ordinary pupil should not be punished (he/she is in a competitive environment with someone who has been awarded by outside forces, therefore they have been punished) because of the minority's choice to take on something that may have one or two downsides.

By the way - capitals, please!!

NO! the shift button is in an awkward place in this laptop.

[Poor Student]

I didnt say it was a win-win. All I'm saying is that the ordinary pupil should not be punished (he/she is in a competitive environment with someone who has been awarded by outside forces, therefore they have been punished) because of the minority's choice to take on something that may have one or two downsides.

You're completey right. The system can't legislate for the fact that some people may choose to take grinds. We're all disadvantaged and advantaged in various ways. For some reason Pinapple mentioned students who learn through Irish are more likely to not be able to be helped by their parents and that's a disadvantage. To me that only further highlights the ludicrousness of that line of thinking.

Also, is it that impossible for someone to take grinds in English on subjects they study through Gaeilge? I know the terminology may change but if you're going to be that ignorant of the terminology in English then won't you struggle to take any subject you took through Irish at third level? Does the education system through Irish render its students unable to adapt to subjects in the English language?

[GavinZac]

Does the education system through Irish render its students unable to adapt to subjects in the English language?

I would, from admittedly limited experience, say yes. I mentioned the gaelgoir currently putting up with me a while back, she did have difficulty talking about science subjects in particular through english, as did her sister (same gaelscoil). she posts on here so she may give a slightly more positive opinion but i suspect she'll confirm what i say.

which leads naturally to questioning the wisedom of learning atomic structure through irish, taking your nice little bonus, qualifying for astrophysics and finding yourself handicapped, with the first year will be spent attempting to re-learn what the little thingo with the gas flame is called.

[pineapple stu]

i named courses - nursing, teaching, medicine and astrophysics are all courses. its the last one that gives it away. not too many people earn a living just doing astrophysics

Wrong. You said "Pupil B is awarded a B, and can possibly be a nurse. Maybe a teacher." Nurse and teacher are jobs, not courses. My earlier point holds.

For some reason Pinapple mentioned students who learn through Irish are more likely to not be able to be helped by their parents and that's a disadvantage. To me that only further highlights the ludicrousness of that line of thinking.

Read the thread again (if you dare...) In response to the claim that pupils are forced by parents to do the Leaving Cert in Irish to gain extra points, I noted that in this case, the parents probably wouldn't be able to help the child to the same extent, which would negate the effectiveness, and therefore the likeliness, of this course of action.

I am consequently arguing that people who send their children to gaelscoileanna are doing so more out of a love for our language and culture (to separate the two is utterly ludicrous, and indicates that GZ never bothered doing the google search I suggested), and not out of the sense of cynicism GavinZac is suggesting.

You're actually agreeing with me, therefore, in your post.

In response to your second question, my dad went to a gaelscoil, and from there to engineering in college, and he said the language change never posed him a problem. Aberdonian Stu went to a gaelscoil and has never mentioned any language problems.

[GavinZac]

Read the thread again (if you dare...) In response to the claim that pupils are forced by parents to do the Leaving Cert in Irish to gain extra points, I noted that in this case, the parents probably wouldn't be able to help the child to the same extent, which would negate the effectiveness, and therefore the likeliness, of this course of action.

in fairness, who's parents sit down and talk through calculus with their child?

I am consequently arguing that people who send their children to gaelscoileanna are doing so more out of a love for our language and culture (to separate the two is utterly ludicrous, and indicates that you never bothered checking up and of the google links I mentioned), and not out of the sense of cynicism GavinZac is suggesting.

ludicrous? ludicrous is making a ridiculous statement like its impossible to seperate language and culture - what exactly does that make either of us, as english speakers? and then suggesting for backup that i go and google it

In response to your second question, my dad went to a gaelscoil, and from there to engineering in college, and he said the language change never posed him a problem. Aberdonian Stu went to a gaelscoil and has never mentioned any language problems.

obviously, this is a matter of case-by-case subjectivity. either way, you've undermined your own point since you claim there is no difficulty applying knowledge in one language to the other, thus negating the rubbish you previously spouted about deserving extra points because there are less irish-language grinds.

good day sir

[kingdom hoop]

obviously, this is a matter of case-by-case subjectivity. either way, you've undermined your own point since you claim there is no difficulty applying knowledge in one language to the other, thus negating the rubbish you previously spouted about deserving extra points because there are less irish-language grinds.

its not applying the knowledge per se thats difficult or time consuming. Its getting to the stage where you can, having toiled through a more arduous process, adeptly juggle language and knowledge in an exam situation(this would negatively tie in with gavins depiction of the pressurised CAO world). in a working environment this is less of a problem as you can simply talk it over with a colleague.

the arduous process I mentioned would include the scarcity of Irish language textbooks, thus time spent, pencil in hand, scribbling in Irish words. While if there were Irish books the language is often too dense/difficult such that the pencils would be whipped out again for it to make sense in English! In your Pupil A experiment earlier this would need to be added to the scales. Such classroom activities are objectively detrimental.

Gavin, if this issue is so important could you start a new thread.

You seem more concerned with flitting than anything constructive. Maybe take the approach of why shouldnt they get bonus points, is there actually something hard that they deserve reward? You cannot let the fact that you believe the benefits of these schools are immoral and cultural carnage to hide the fact that students who learn through Irish have a somewhat harder learning experience. Such difficulties coupled with the desire to preserve our language explain the bonus system. If you'd like me to further discuss the educational merits of the CAO fraud can we do so elsewhere as I'm suspicious you just want to kill the Irish language and are thinking the best place to start is in the schools. So, if you just want the abolish the language we'll stay here, or if it's just the bonus system to be booted out we'll move on.

[GavinZac]

I'm not enda kenny! It is a rather bulky tangent we've gone on but im not sure a new thread would be productive. this all came about from my list of reasons for gaelscoils growing in popularity (and you cant say the bonuses are not a reason, given that its the reason the bonus system exists at all), which came from someone claiming that the language is no longer dead, which came from me claiming the language is irrelevant to 99% of (irish, non-academic) people's lives, and therefore to the culture we live in: irish culture. can we rewind to that point which i dont think has been properly addressed?

culture is what we make of it, and when something isnt part of culture any more, it is part of history. we can be proud of ireland's history without needing to learn the latin the monks wrote in, or culturally appreciating the slagging remarks written at the back. we can be proud of ireland's culture without the need to learn agam, agat, againn, agibh, or dragging our checkered history into it. we can also, if one is particular fond of "dense/difficult" language, appreciate the language unto itself, though the limited nature of the literature available is almost entirely based on irish history or culture - it (unlike some languages, so this point is specific to gaeilge) serves little purpose without them, though one could try to document the history of the San people of southern african through irish or write an eye-openning thesis on the faith of men, it just hasnt been done. The dependency, thus, is one way. Gaeilge needs irish culture, irish culture does not need gaeilge.

I've yet to hear a single reason, valid or otherwise, why culture is apparently so tied to language, apart from "google it.".

[kingdom hoop]

which came from someone claiming that the language is no longer dead,

When was it dead? I know Easter just passed but I missed this other funeral and resurrection alas.

culture is what we make of it, and when something isnt part of culture any more, it is part of history.

can you see the contradiction when you say that Irish is consigned to the history books while giving reasons as to why it is coming back into popularity? You disagree that it is worthy of a place in our country but the fact is Irish has strong support, maybe a minority but a more sizable one than you believe.

Additionally, you are being outrageously disrespectful, and display an ethnic cleansing attitude, towards those in the Gaeltacht areas of the country.

Irish is a language, language's are to be cherised but they die out in tandem with the strength of nationality, as Irish almost did. the case of Espearanto shows that language needs organic growth, feeding off the spirit, culture and characteristics of its speakers, thus I think there is a link between language and culture as how else do languages develop their bizarre idiosyncrasies

Gaeilge needs irish culture, irish culture does not need gaeilge.

I'll quote myself from earlier;

you return to 'without irish we think we are less irish'.

every time you say such i just think 'well, we are definitely more with it'. obviously you give it so little credence but can you not appreciate some merit?

now fast forward 30 years in an ever-globalising world. what will Irish culture be? What will distinguish us from England etc? Would it not be of worth to have our own language? I always feel pride when I tell foreigners I was educated through Irish(late disclosure!!), especially if they were unaware the language even existed.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

culture is what we make of it, and when something isnt part of culture any more, it is part of history.

But Irish people, quite remarkably, continue to speak Irish. Therefore people who speak Irish are still part of Irish culture and not yet history. If culture is what we make of it why are you so upset when some people make a big thing of Irish?

Your fanatical need to separate history and culture is perplexing.

we can be proud of ireland's history without needing to learn the latin the monks wrote in, or culturally appreciating the slagging remarks written at the back.

Of course you can; but it doesn't make it any less of a part of our historical culture. The smart remarks and little poems and explanatory commentary written by the scribes in the margins or between the lines are a great source of enjoyment and wonder and information if that floats your boat. If it doesn't, again, why get upset that some people enjoy it? Hiberno-Latin or Early Irish is not being forced down anybody's throat. (Quite the opposite in the latter case, in fact.) We don't even have the old £5 notes imposing their culture into our pockets any more; they're history.

we can be proud of ireland's culture without the need to learn agam, agat, againn, agibh, or dragging our checkered history into it.

I cannot see the benefit of not learning something when you are young, particularly a language. Especially a language which only survives in the country you happen to live in. It would be odd not to teach it.

I don't see how you can say it is possible to be proud of something at the same time as refusing to teach part of it to your children.

Many people have issues with the way the Irish language was taught to them in school, but quality of teaching is another argument.

we can also, if one is particular fond of "dense/difficult" language, appreciate the language unto itself, ...

Quite a boorish twisting of kingdom hoop's words and a comment you appear to be unqualified to make.

...though the limited nature of the literature available is almost entirely based on irish history or culture - it (unlike some languages, so this point is specific to gaeilge) serves little purpose without them, though one could try to document the history of the San people of southern african through irish or write an eye-openning thesis on the faith of men, it just hasnt been done. The dependency, thus, is one way. Gaeilge needs irish culture, irish culture does not need gaeilge.

Irish-language literature is "almost entirely based on irish history or culture"? Incorrect. You really should read more of it or perhaps ask questions of the people you hear coming out with this stuff as you appear not to have a grasp of the facts.

There are many works of literature in Irish that do not discuss Irish history or culture (I really don't know what you mean at this stage with either of those words, it could be anything). Please be advised that there has been a conscious shift away from the 'traditional' milieu in Irish-language poetry and prose since the '60s.

But does setting an Irish-language novel or short story in the past or in Ireland or -- God forbid -- the Gaeltacht really detract from whatever magnificent and universal themes might be treated therein? It would be nonsense to mock Ulysses, as Myles na Gopaleen did in jest, for being nothing more than a "tourist guide to Dublin". (Speaking of which, it occurs to me that for all the opportunities offered to them as writers of an international heavyweight tongue, the English-language writers of this island have been just as Hibernocentric as the Irish-language writers.)

As regards writers in other languages, there are plenty of Irish translations just as there are in English. Where's War and Peace set? The Red and the Black? 100 Years of Solitude? What histories and cultures are they "based" on? Did they only become worthy when translated into languages that have nothing to do with Russia, France, Mexico?

As regards your point about academic works, well, minority languages the world over are in the same boat and Irish is nothing special in having a limited audience. You seem to wish to disregard the enormous body of academic publications in Irish that might have anything to do with the slightest whiff of linguistics or history, so I will just note in passing that there are also many that discuss political and theological questions of general import. Current affairs and eclectic discussions on matters of human interest have platforms in print, on the television, on the radio, and on the internet. Do I listen to or read them if they don't interest me? I don't as I am not arsed. Do I if they do? I do.

Your aphorism at the end, "Gaeilge needs irish culture, irish culture does not need gaeilge" does not make sense. Especially as Irish-language culture, being something that a lot of Irish people "do", is an integral part of Irish culture, by your own definition, until it becomes part of Irish history. You can throw a reserved tea party if you live to see the day Irish culture no longer includes literature in Irish created by Irish-speaking people.

It works both ways, this 'accept it, deal with it' kind of attitude.

I've yet to hear a single reason, valid or otherwise, why culture is apparently so tied to language, apart from "google it.".

Maybe you're right and there isn't such a fundamental link; I certainly wouldn't be able to begin explaining how I believe the two to be inextricably linked without using ridiculously emotive and sentimental terminology that would add fuel to your fire and probably set you off on a dangerous schooldays flashback. Perhaps it is in the eye of the beholder.

I would like to know, though, where you think the Irish culture you enjoy would be without the English language.

My general advice, either way, is take it or leave it. But seeing as Ireland is essentially where it's at as regards the Irish language, I think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to avoid "Irish-language culture" completely.

[pineapple stu]

I think GZ's most recent rant demonstrates that his antopathy towards the Irish language stems almost entirely from bad experiences with it at school (either that or low-grade WUMming). The notion that Irish can be reduced to and dismissed as "agam, agat, aige, aici" is utter nonsense.

Incidentally, I asked people I know about the marks for the Leaving Cert; I have been told that getting an extra 7% when you get 79% is just not true. So your point that people send their parents to gaelscoilleana purely to screw the system holds less water by the day.

Incidentally also, you dismissed an earlier comment of mine that being proud of our language does not consitute an inferiorty complex, as the Faroese, Welsh, Czechs, Slovaks, etc, demonstrated. You noted that "Czech and Slovak never died as spoken languages and their temporary drop from use in administration and among the intelligentsia in the 18th century also hardly compares to the situation at hand in ireland." Irish has also never died out as a spoken language, and the "temporary drop from use in administration" doesn't stop Czech being listed as a revived language on Wikipedia for one. Irish also had a head-start on Faroese, Slovak and Czech in the 19th century in that at least we had a written language, while none of the above were ever written languages before being revived. But you're probably happy to dismiss these people as deluded, and to note that their efforts have no reflection on their culture.

I think the Irish language is comparable in a way to the LoI, to be honest. A lot of football fans will dismiss the LoI as insignificant, and may even argue it should be killed off so we can get a Dublin Premiership franchise over here and support them instead. Those who follow the LoI - most of whom have supported or do support an English team as well - are aware that following the LoI has in reality far more to do with our culture than following an English team, despite what the detractors say. However, obviously only those who follow the LoI can appreciate that point. Your argument is very very similar, so I think your ignorance about the Irish language, by the same logic, renders your argument almost irrelevant.

[GavinZac]

But Irish people, quite remarkably, continue to speak Irish. Therefore people who speak Irish are still part of Irish culture and not yet history. If culture is what we make of it why are you so upset when some people make a big thing of Irish?

The tiny minority that speak irish as more than a novelty are far over represented in terms of "rights" and expenditure. For example, nearly half a million euros has been wasted on one project alone, so that teachers wishing to each in gaeltacht areas don't have to suffer the indignity of learning the basics of their trade in English. Unfortunately, the resource was demanded, the money was spent, and now apparantly the demand was much louder than it was sizeable. It is this and similar projects of extravagant waste and basic violations of rights such as the aforementioned removal of english place names in an officially english speaking country and the ridiculous unjustifiable and equally minority-serving bonus points system at leaving cert, allied to the holier-than-though attitudes of that other minority, the novelty speakers, that perturbs me.

Your fanatical need to separate history and culture is perplexing.

you've got me wrong - my point was that history, culture and language can be separated, but I wanted to impress the fact that language is much easier separated from history and culture than they are from each other.

Of course you can; but it doesn't make it any less of a part of our historical culture. The smart remarks and little poems and explanatory commentary written by the scribes in the margins or between the lines are a great source of enjoyment and wonder and information if that floats your boat. If it doesn't, again, why get upset that some people enjoy it? Hiberno-Latin or Early Irish is not being forced down anybody's throat. (Quite the opposite in the latter case, in fact.) We don't even have the old £5 notes imposing their culture into our pockets any more; they're history.

nobody's upset that they enjoy it. However, I would be "upset" at those that use it to their advantage, and those that wish to deny the reality of our culture today in favour of an absurd ideal of continuation from those few hundred monks akin to Benito Mussolini wishing to restore the glory of fascist rome, an ignorant denial that times have changed and things have moved vastly onward.

I cannot see the benefit of not learning something when you are young, particularly a language. Especially a language which only survives in the country you happen to live in. It would be odd not to teach it.

it is time wasted, for the majority of pupils. every person in ireland has suffered through over a dozen years of being force fed a mish-mash of Pól Péist and catechismal crap. there are so many more productive things they could be doing. I'm not seeking to outlaw irish, but simply to unburden those who dont wish to spend time reciting things that are about as useful to later life as learning the names of the pokemon.

I don't see how you can say it is possible to be proud of something at the same time as refusing to teach part of it to your children.

again, not refusal. choice. unbiased choice, at that.

Irish-language literature is "almost entirely based on irish history or culture"? Incorrect. You really should read more of it or perhaps ask questions of the people you hear coming out with this stuff as you appear not to have a grasp of the facts.

There are many works of literature in Irish that do not discuss Irish history or culture (I really don't know what you mean at this stage with either of those words, it could be anything). Please be advised that there has been a conscious shift away from the 'traditional' milieu in Irish-language poetry and prose since the '60s.

But does setting an Irish-language novel or short story in the past or in Ireland or -- God forbid -- the Gaeltacht really detract from whatever magnificent and universal themes might be treated therein? It would be nonsense to mock Ulysses, as Myles na Gopaleen did in jest, for being nothing more than a "tourist guide to Dublin". (Speaking of which, it occurs to me that for all the opportunities offered to them as writers of an international heavyweight tongue, the English-language writers of this island have been just as Hibernocentric as the Irish-language writers.)

As regards writers in other languages, there are plenty of Irish translations just as there are in English. Where's War and Peace set? The Red and the Black? 100 Years of Solitude? What histories and cultures are they "based" on? Did they only become worthy when translated into languages that have nothing to do with Russia, France, Mexico?

As regards your point about academic works, well, minority languages the world over are in the same boat and Irish is nothing special in having a limited audience. You seem to wish to disregard the enormous body of academic publications in Irish that might have anything to do with the slightest whiff of linguistics or history, so I will just note in passing that there are also many that discuss political and theological questions of general import. Current affairs and eclectic discussions on matters of human interest have platforms in print, on the television, on the radio, and on the internet. Do I listen to or read them if they don't interest me? I don't as I am not arsed. Do I if they do? I do.

You're probably right, I'm not entirely qualified to discuss the body of literature available as gaeilge, since my own tiscint of the language is restricted to cupla focla cosuil le sin. However, from a schooling point of view, which would be my own experience of the language, the fair is mediocre at best. The works I can remember are some old guy abusing a mentally challenged friend and a bird, some kerry man throwing rocks at pavees before heading to america and telling wonderful tales of negros and dance halls, and a by-numbers murder plot set in suburban dublin. we also translated the national anthem, much to the delight of the proto-provo messers in the class. i would imagine majority of people's experiences are like this - and we didnt even have to do peig sayers!

Your aphorism at the end, "Gaeilge needs irish culture, irish culture does not need gaeilge" does not make sense. Especially as Irish-language culture, being something that a lot of Irish people "do", is an integral part of Irish culture, by your own definition, until it becomes part of Irish history. You can throw a reserved tea party if you live to see the day Irish culture no longer includes literature in Irish created by Irish-speaking people.

the figures themselves show actual irish speakers to be numbered in the thousands. i wouldnt call it "a lot" anyway. of the novelty speakers, i would include their little passtime as on par with medieval recreation societies - no more than a sometimes enjoyable hobby, certainly not integral to the culture we live in. The culture of our country are the events, beliefs and ideals in our everyday lives. Perhaps attempting to recreate an irish speaking state is a part of irish culture, that does not make the language itself a part, no more than the benchmarking process is. Almost invariably, these events, ideals and beliefs are convey through the medium of english, but as I said, the medium is for the most part irrelevant.

I would like to know, though, where you think the Irish culture you enjoy would be without the English language.

im not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean do i think Irish culture would be different if we still spoke irish? possibly, given that would create an entirely different reality. Our tv shows would probably still be in english, and english would probably still be a very strong "second language" the way it is in other countries, as evidenced by the polish influx.

My general advice, either way, is take it or leave it. But seeing as Ireland is essentially where it's at as regards the Irish language, I think it's unreasonable to expect to be able to avoid "Irish-language culture" completely.

I don't expect to be able to avoid it, given the amount of investment of time, money and energy driven into it by those who you would call patriotic or sentimental, and i would call foolhardy. However, a bit of reality on the scale of things would be nice.

[Erstwhile Bóz]

The tiny minority that speak irish as more than a novelty are far over represented in terms of "rights" and expenditure.

You can't even communicate meaningfully with the vast majority of Irish state bodies unless you resort to English; how have Irish-speakers been over-represented in "rights"? Outside of the state system?

It is this and similar projects of extravagant waste and basic violations of rights such as the aforementioned removal of english place names in an officially english speaking country

Explain to me again, as I am particularly interested in this one, how the "removal of English place names" is being carried out as a "basic violation of rights". Also how we are an officially English-speaking country as opposed to a state that has two official languages, one far stronger than the other.

and the ridiculous unjustifiable and equally minority-serving bonus points system at leaving cert, allied to the holier-than-though attitudes of that other minority, the novelty speakers, that perturbs me.

Ah, the fabled bonus points in certain subjects. Evidence of favouritism for Irish-speakers at last!

But who's holier than thou art? All I hear from your posts on this chestnut is you stamping your foot screaming, "I'm not less Irish, I'm not, I'm not!" and nobody even suggesting that you are.

nobody's upset that they enjoy it. However, I would be "upset" at those that use it to their advantage, and those that wish to deny the reality of our culture today in favour of an absurd ideal of continuation from those few hundred monks akin to Benito Mussolini wishing to restore the glory of fascist rome, an ignorant denial that times have changed and things have moved vastly onward..

This is marvellous stuff; who are these madmen who live out Continuity Monk fantasies and what was "the glory of fascist Rome"?

it is time wasted, for the majority of pupils. every person in ireland has suffered through over a dozen years of being force fed a mish-mash of Pól Péist and catechismal crap. there are so many more productive things they could be doing. I'm not seeking to outlaw irish, but simply to unburden those who dont wish to spend time reciting things that are about as useful to later life as learning the names of the pokemon.

It would be unreasonable to allow children of four or five to make an informed choice on what they wish to learn. Again, I cannot see the value in children not learning the language intrinsic to at least some of our culture. Or would you segregate schools culturally? (Sorry, we should ask the four-year-olds to decide that.)

again, not refusal. choice. unbiased choice, at that.

Then why claim to be proud of it? If you resent it, for whatever reason, then say so. Do not engage in mealy-mouthedness. If you were "proud" of that part of the culture you would not continually denigrate it, speaking disparagingly of novelties, tiny minorities, skellig-fetishists, and Nazis.

im not quite sure what you mean. Do you mean do i think Irish culture would be different if we still spoke irish? possibly, given that would create an entirely different reality.

No. I mean to ask if you can see the connection between the English language and the culture you currently enjoy. You who states that there is no connection between language and culture.

english would probably still be a very strong "second language" the way it is in other countries, as evidenced by the polish influx.

I honestly don't know what that means.

I don't expect to be able to avoid it, given the amount of investment of time, money and energy driven into it by those who you would call patriotic or sentimental, and i would call foolhardy.

Who are these people who I would call patriotic and sentimental? People who speak Irish and have constantly to defend themselves for doing so against forward-thinkers and modern men such as yourself? You are wrong.

However, a bit of reality on the scale of things would be nice.

We can agree, I think, on that.

[GavinZac]

You can't even communicate meaningfully with the vast majority of Irish state bodies unless you resort to English; how have Irish-speakers been over-represented in "rights"? Outside of the state system?

unsurprising, given that you can't communicate meaningfully with the vast majority of Irish people unless you resort to English: government is a reflection of self.

Explain to me again, as I am particularly interested in this one, how the "removal of English place names" is being carried out as a "basic violation of rights". Also how we are an officially English-speaking country as opposed to a state that has two official languages, one far stronger than the other.

officially, legally, whatever, we are supposedly both irish speaking (*cough*) and english speaking. if someone attempted to remove the irish name from a purely english speaking area, there would be havoc. However, head-up-arse councillors can make undemocratic decisions like removing the english names of towns such as Ballyvourney this week, safe in the knowledge that any attempt to reason with them can be waved away in the name of "culture".

But who's holier than thou art? All I hear from your posts on this chestnut is you stamping your foot screaming, "I'm not less Irish, I'm not, I'm not!" and nobody even suggesting that you are.

err...

People who speak Irish and have constantly to defend themselves for doing so against forward-thinkers and modern men such as yourself? You are wrong.

This is marvellous stuff; who are these madmen who live out Continuity Monk fantasies and what was "the glory of fascist Rome"?

there arent any. as far as i know. that was my point, its ludicrous to dredge something up from the past.

It would be unreasonable to allow children of four or five to make an informed choice on what they wish to learn. Again, I cannot see the value in children not learning the language intrinsic to at least some of our culture. Or would you segregate schools culturally? (Sorry, we should ask the four-year-olds to decide that.)

for crying out loud, we're heading from sublime to ridiculous. No, i wouldnt ask the four year olds to make that decision. we would make that decision. the fact of the matter is that for the vast majority of pupils currently legally bound to study irish, it is an entire waste of time. the value of not learning the language is the ability to learn something else. call me spartan, but surely the ages of 3-10 are when children should be learning a useful second language that will enable them to converse fluently in a situation beneficial to themselves such as travelling or working abroad, or foreign-language-based customer service, the way that occurs in continental europe and asia, and later should they choose to spend their time studying something "romantic and sentimental", they can choose that without impinging on those who would rather focus on something more beneficial?

Then why claim to be proud of it? If you resent it, for whatever reason, then say so. Do not engage in mealy-mouthedness. If you were "proud" of that part of the culture you would not continually denigrate it, speaking disparagingly of novelties, tiny minorities, skellig-fetishists, and Nazis.

denigration is subjective isnt it? personally i would consider the protein folding research field a novelty, carried out by a tiny minority, with a fetish-like enthusiasm for complex work units and folds. not sure where the nazis came into it, but i can safely say i can be very proud of the work they/we do into protein research. if you're imagining my posts with a sort of sneer attached, you've got me pitched wrong.

No. I mean to ask if you can see the connection between the English language and the culture you currently enjoy. You who states that there is no connection between language and culture.

I presume here you're trying to imply mass-media is somehow representative of the english language. again, you seem fearful to remove language from culture lest it look naked and utilitarian.

Who are these people who I would call patriotic and sentimental? People who speak Irish and have constantly to defend themselves for doing so against forward-thinkers and modern men such as yourself? You are wrong.

You don't have to defend yourselves, to me anyway. Just stop punching above your weight, because as trade unions often find out, there is a certain point at which joe public stops seeing the glory of what you do and spots the demands you are making.

[kingdom hoop]

Your issue is that Irish has no place in the world because ;

a) people who support it are delusional and must be saved
b) it perpetrates fraud
c) as a language it has no merit and is too clumsy, though it is a novelty
d) it creates a distorted depiction of our culture though isn't actually a part of our culture
e) there is no good literature (based on a knowledge of schoolbooks!)
f) English speaking Irish people are being ostracised
g) it only has historical relevance and has no place in the modern world despite current optimism
h) a series of human right violations have occurred
EDIT; i) school time is wasted learning it

and feel instead that more worthy causes would be dancing at crossroads and fireside story telling

that is how I characterise the issue. Needless to say I see very little merit in anything above

[GavinZac]

Your issue is that Irish has no place in the world

no

because ;

a) people who support it are delusional and must be saved

no. thats religion.

b) it perpetrates fraud

the language itself? no.

c) as a language it has no merit and is too clumsy, though it is a novelty

in my opinion, true to a degree.

d) it creates a distorted depiction of our culture though isn't actually a part of our culture

no, its an abstract set of syntax rules, it doesnt do anything. in the past it was the medium for the transmission of our culture, it is not any longer.

e) there is no good literature (based on a knowledge of schoolbooks!)

not from my admittedly limited experience. An Fhaoilain would leave anyone with a distinctly bland taste in the mouth.

f) English speaking Irish people are being ostracised

no. not ostracised. certainly, they are not especially favoured.

g) it only has historical relevance and has no place in the modern world despite current optimism

in my opinion. should that mean someone cant take an interest in it without disturbing me? no. should it mean any child of mine should be exempt from being forced to waste time on something its unlikely they'll ever use? yes. in my opinion.

h) a series of human right violations have occurred

i dont know if "the right to be judged fairly academically" is in the human rights charter, but id imagine it is somewhere under discrimination.

EDIT; i) school time is wasted learning it

yes, yes, most profoundly yes, for the majority of people who reach 25 barely knowing anything beyond the "an bhfuil cead agam dul go dti an leithrais" mantra, yes.
obviously there are some who want to learn it; off with them. dont force me or my kids to do it.

and feel instead that more worthy causes would be dancing at crossroads and fireside story telling

those are examples of culture. language is just a medium. apples and oranges.

that is how I characterise the issue. Needless to say I see very little merit in anything above

clearly there are areas of the issue where i either didnt express myself well or you've misconstrued it. theres a lot of "no"s up there.

[ollie]

well your signature says
Trust me, im usually right.


But I disagree and am dissapointed in your attitute towards an Gaeilge.
Notice how most of the people are not agreeing with you...?