Can anyone say this isn't stupid?

[kingdom hoop]

you've failed to convince me of anything gavin i'm afraid. just one point, you say;

I entirely disagree with anyone suggesting the majority of people promoting the irish language are doing it for political reasons.

i'll reasonably infer that you dont have a problem with people promoting the language out of their love for it and the associated cultural kick they get out of it. so if it happens that this group is strong enough without needing to directly influence political matters then you should aim your anger away from the language, and question why such a supposedly insignificant and unloved faction can effectuate such grand crimes on society without any reciprocal gains for the populace

[GavinZac]

i'll reasonably infer that you dont have a problem with people promoting the language out of their love for it and the associated cultural kick they get out of it.

well, not entirely. as i said, i don't think its right to equate the language with culture. they would be misguided, rather than malicious.

so if it happens that this group is strong enough without needing to directly influence political matters then you should aim your anger away from the language, and question why such a supposedly insignificant and unloved faction can effectuate such grand crimes on society without any reciprocal gains for the populace

well thats a whole other argument, one i've no doubt would end up with angry accusations. as well as the reasons you gave above, I would argue that the group you speak of are facilitated somewhat by a number of not-so-rosey-in-the-garden factors, in a similar fashion to those who would delude themselves with ideas of omnipotent, creative gods. i am not giving these as the be all and end all reasons for the current optimism surrounding the future of the irish language but i would include:
elitism amongst the new middle class in sending their child to a gaelscoil
pressure to conform to a "patriotic" ideal that somehow it is "more irish" to speak gaeilge.
better funding, higher standards and the free CAO points associated with gaelscoils.
tangible results from the major investment in providing reasons to know irish, eg TG4, EU funding, housing grants
the "cool" factor someone mentioned above - in essence, a bandwagon.
the improvement of teaching methods instigated in recent years (obviously not from my experience, my significant other is a teacher)
the network effect, in economic terms. e.g. a 'product' that becomes more valuable the more other people use it - fax machines, languages.

also, i wouldnt agree that i have any inherent hostility toward the language itself - if we all spoke it we obviously wouldnt be having this conversation. rather, my ire is directed at the, if not futility, unnecessary nature of promoting it. the idea that if we lost the gaelic language we (as a people) would somehow be less irish (a contradiction of terms surely - we are what we are) is what frustrates me, all stemming from the central argument i've given, that language is merely the media by which culture is conveyed, rather than a part of the culture itself. i would rather my taxes and other people's efforts go toward preserving, and creating more valuable parts of irish life. we need more hospital beds and art, not gaeilgóirs and Dunmharu ar an Dart.

[pineapple stu]

These tourists being the ones that read the Irish times, obviously.

Tourist comes to Ireland. Reads paper - happens to select the Irish Times. Leaves and on arrival back home, sends an e-mail to said paper. It's actually quite common. Maybe you should check the facts before commenting on it.

You're reduced to tabloidising the issue, to be honest, likening Irish to dead monks, scribes and now horses and carts. Not particularly strong arguments, to be honest. You've ignored numerous salient points such as the actual rise in popularity in Irish today.

what? where?

Try here -

sure give the tourists what they want and bring back the horses and carts on o'connell street.

and here -

is it an inferiority complex or embarrassment that makes people think that exhuming a clumsy dead language with little or no literature of value would be better than being proud of the culture we actually live in today, the culture of Irish people and not long dead monks and scribes?

and, if your confusion related to the second point, then I'll refer you to here -

As a side note, gaelscoileanna are at record popularity, Irish is probably "cooler" and more accepted than at any time in the past few decades with the likes of TG4, Hector, live football and so forth and it's actually not uncommon to hear people, particularly younger people, talking in Irish.

and here -

You'll find a lot of older Irish people who express regret at not having more Irish.

Come on - surely you have actual points to make rather than ignoring what's been said already and engaging in tabloid-style debating (i.e. your What? Where? comment, which failed to address any relevant points).

You also never showed me how I was being hypocritical earlier.

[GavinZac]

and, if your confusion related to the second point, then I'll refer you to here -
and here -
Come on - surely you have actual points to make rather than ignoring what's been said already and engaging in tabloid-style debating (i.e. your What? Where? comment, which failed to address any relevant points).

yes, I hadn't seen that post. i've checked and you edited it in, in the last post on page one. Funnily enough I've sort of addressed that above, when addressing KH's point about how things like the daingean farce are allowed to happen.

You also never showed me how I was being hypocritical earlier.

You: "Right, well your mind is obviously made up, so I'm not going to bother arguing with you."
Me: "thats quite hypocritical ... the equation of culture and language shows that either you didnt read or my post or you simply ignored it because 'your mind is obviously made up'."

[kingdom hoop]

right, you've conveyed your opinion a bit better, maith an buachaill!! i would flatly reject the majority of what you say however. before i detail why i'll just put two quotes of yours up for the laugh;

what the hell has a dead language got to do with our culture?

before you say;

i wouldnt agree that i have any inherent hostility toward the language itself

if you're calling a live language dead then i think you are showing hostility towards it. like if a person you didnt like was bleeding after an accident and you had the option to stick a plaster on and revive the person you wouldnt, in your eyes they should be dead already. i acknowledge your point that you dont like the language because you see it as some sort of fake symbol of irishness but calling it dead to back up this point is well wide of the mark and to me displays a hostility, ignorance and bias(however inadvertent) that jettisons the legitimacy of your argument. but thats just a technical gripe, no major worries!

the idea that if we lost the gaelic language we (as a people) would somehow be less irish (a contradiction of terms surely - we are what we are) is what frustrates me, all stemming from the central argument i've given, that language is merely the media by which culture is conveyed, rather than a part of the culture itself.

your ideological tenet is that language is not an intrinsic element of culture. having never studied the interrelation of language and culture i'm a bit blind here in what is no doubt a well-researched field of study. but as an amateur i would deduce that language must be a part of culture, as the way we express ourselves(language) must be somehow psychologically related to our actions and thinking(culture), like for example the way we say 'you're not going for a pint are you?' in a negative sense when it could be said in a positive sense. now, trying not to get in too over my head, i would venture that a close examination of the irish language and its development over the centuries could lead to some notable findings of the way people were thinking. if someone, maybe gavinzac or whoever, knows more then i'd appreciate enlightenment!

anyway, i dont think the main point concerns whether we are less irish without our language but rather that we are more with it. how can one argue for more funding for road-bowling and a rejuvenation of crossroad dancing but say a language should be neglected. yes they may be worthy causes and activities but at the same time, at least in some people's eyes and leaving aside the cultural aspect aside for a moment, so is a language. i love the english and french languages, does that mean i'm happy to jeopardise coral reefs, wild bears or legislation for pedestrian crossings? no, merely they are other aspects of peoples lives that regardless of importance to me, i respect the need for their preservation and would not quibble about funding on their behalf.

now for the reasons you feel irish should be consigned to the grave that you feel it already has fallen into, though you curiously now admit there may be some evil resurgence

elitism amongst the new middle class in sending their child to a gaelscoil

what? are irish schools now fee paying? the schools people go to revolve around location primarily, then friends, but elitism? 'oh ya, I'm sending my son to an irish school, i'm great and better than everyone else with their common english-speaking schools' - i must be out of touch. personal choice if parents do decide that, not one-upmanship.

pressure to conform to a "patriotic" ideal that somehow it is "more irish" to speak gaeilge.

pressure from who exactly? a persons patriotism is subjective, and they are the judges. some of our leaders have been gaeilgeoirs, while others havent, they are no less irish. as a speaker of irish i happen to feel more irish, but i dont go around saying i'm better than you, or look down on anyone who doesnt. its a controversial issue, but do we ask new citizens to pass an irish test? in this era i fail to see how it is a patriotic ideal, as you've said yourself we ought to move with the times

better funding, higher standards and the free CAO points associated with gaelscoils.

absolute poppycock. where did you do your research? better funding? good one! higher standards of teachers is it, in that people who can speak irish are somehow intellectually superior? free CAO points? ya and you get an 'i love ireland' t-shirt on presentation of your six A1s i can only be caustic to that rubbish.

[GavinZac]

absolute poppycock. where did you do your research? better funding? good one! higher standards of teachers is it, in that people who can speak irish are somehow intellectually superior? free CAO points? ya and you get an 'i love ireland' t-shirt on presentation of your six A1s i can only be caustic to that rubbish.

i'm finishing up in work at the moment so i'll address the matters of facts rather than opinion - summed up by a blogger on www.gaelport.com

The Leaving Certificate examination results, upon which the CAO system depends are unfair. It is not a level playing field for all students.

To encourage students in a bygone age to study Irish, a bonus system was introduced, where students doing their Leaving Cert through Irish gain a percentage bonus which is added on to their overall result in the particular subject.

Students doing the examination gain a bonus of from three per cent to ten per cent depending on subject.

All subjects get a bonus except Irish, English, Technical Drawing, and Art (other than History and Appreciation of Art).

Take the example of a student studying Honours History who earns 60 per cent which is a C grade. The bonus will increase the marks to 66 per cent, a C+ grade, or a gain of five points in CAO system.

If another student gets 69 per cent C+, the bonus will increase the marks to 75.9 per cent, a B+ grade, or a gain of ten points in CAO system.

Above 75 per cent the bonus decreases linearly, so a student getting a 79 per cent B in History gains only eight per cent of 79 per cent, or 6.3 per cent approximately, resulting in 85 per cent A. That's a gain of ten percentage points.

In fact any student studying a subject which is entitled to a ten per cent bonus will gain at least five points if their marks are between 41 per cent and 90 per cent approximately.

One must remember that most subjects are marked out of 300 marks to 600 marks, so a percentage may be as much as six marks.

Most students take at least seven subjects, which include English and Irish and Maths.

With the right choice of subjects a good average student gains at least 20 points and possibly five points from Maths (bonus five per cent) depending on their score.

[kingdom hoop]

whats your point? our were you just being disingenuous when you said free CAO points?

whats next, german nationals who move here shouldnt be allowed do german cos they get free points too?

[GavinZac]

whats your point? our were you just being disingenuous when you said free CAO points?

um... its a reason for the high attendance to gaelscoils? an extra 20 points is like gold dust in the CAO these days.

whats next, german nationals who move here shouldnt be allowed do german cos they get free points too?

i have no idea what that has to do with anything (or that you can do your leaving cert through german ), but i listed the reasons simply "as i see it" rather than as an attack on anything. if you think the bonus 5% in every subject is not a reason for attending a gaelscoil, fair play, thats admirably short sighted.

edit: i think you thought i meant that they'd just do better in irish as a subject because they actually learn it properly. thats not the case. you actually do get an extra 5% for doing them through irish

[pineapple stu]

On the hypocrisy point, your notion that language and culture don't equate is generally rejected by any sensible definition of either term - the fact that, for a very brief period of our history, the majority of the country hasn't been speaking our language (it never died, despite your claims to the contrary, and is in fact currently re-emerging, for good reasons or bad) doesn't diminish its relevance to the extent you are suggesting. In that event, I'm not being hypocritical, as you suggest - I'm being right. There are plenty of references on google for this - just enter language national culture - and indeed our own languange makes reference to this fact - "Tír gan teanga is tír gan anam"

I think the gaelscoilleana point is overstated, to be honest. Yes there's bonus marks (is that blog accurate as to how they're attributed, incidentally? It's a formula I've never heard before, even from people I know who went to gaelscoilleana), but there has to be a desire on the parents' part to educate their children in their national language as well; if they don't care about Irish, they're going to find it hard to assist their child in any manner in their school work (an important follow-up to school-work and homework), and so sending children to gaelscoilleana purely in order to cheat the CAO isn't likely to be as succesful as it may initially sound.

[kingdom hoop]

i have no idea what that has to do with anything (or that you can do your leaving cert through german ),

the german thing was an analogy in reference to people gaining a seemingly unfair advantage without accounting for associated encumbrances.

like if a german girl came over she'd obviously do great in german but her geography might struggle on account of her having to translate all the technical words. thus taking up a lot of time in the exam thinking of words when you'd rather be thinking of the next big point, as well as all the time in class when the teacher would presumably have to give out the vocabulary. also, textbooks may not exist in all subjects or are often of a poor quality. given the views you've expressed i dont see how i convince you its a worthy idea but its certainly not a case of 'free points' as you mention. i'll just say that hopefully there will be enough gaeilscoileanna around the country soon so that everyone can avail of this perceived loophole

[Erstwhile Bóz]

GavinZac, will you ask your girlfriend (the Gaeilgeoir) to send the info she has regarding An Daingean being a makie-uppie name to us in the Placenames Branch, Department of Community, Rural & Gaeltacht Affairs, Mespil Road, D4, please? Sounds like it could be quite important, seeing as it would expose quite a number of early Irish-language sources as fakes, not to mention casting enormous doubt on the sources of some of the earliest English-language references to the town (it was written "Dingan", "Dingine ne quose", etc., before it transformed, quite naturally, 'in the mouth', as it were, the better to suit the sounds of English).

By the way, official road signs in the town itself -- as everywhere else in the Gaeltacht -- have been in Irish only ("An Daingean") since 1970. A total of zero complaints has ever been received by the Department of the Environment or the Department of the Gaeltacht from lost tourists (or from people who wanted "Daingean Uí Chúis(e)", by the way) in all that time.

Never mind the fact that any tourist who types "Dingle" into Google these days will get reams of hits about the current nonsense.

p.s. Owners: what's the crack with Ctrl&Alt or AltGr not working for -i- and -u- fada any more? Italics and underline tabs come up instead.

[KoemansCC]

p.s. Owners: what's the crack with Ctrl&Alt or AltGr not working for -i- and -u- fada any more? Italics and underline tabs come up instead.

Hold [Ctrl & Alt & '] together then release and press letter of choice

é ó í

[Erstwhile Bóz]

Hold [Ctrl & Alt & '] together then release and press letter of choice

é ó í

Wordesque! Míle buíochas leat.

[GavinZac]

the german thing was an analogy in reference to people gaining a seemingly unfair advantage without accounting for associated encumbrances.

like if a german girl came over she'd obviously do great in german but her geography might struggle on account of her having to translate all the technical words. thus taking up a lot of time in the exam thinking of words when you'd rather be thinking of the next big point, as well as all the time in class when the teacher would presumably have to give out the vocabulary. also, textbooks may not exist in all subjects or are often of a poor quality. given the views you've expressed i dont see how i convince you its a worthy idea but its certainly not a case of 'free points' as you mention. i'll just say that hopefully there will be enough gaeilscoileanna around the country soon so that everyone can avail of this perceived loophole

you didnt read what i posted from that blog.

[kingdom hoop]

you didnt read what i posted from that blog.

ok.

you didnt brush your teeth this morning

[GavinZac]

ok.

you didnt brush your teeth this morning

I havent even been out of bed doing college work, though not very well obviously

no really, you didnt. The bonus i was referring to is a Leaving Cert marking criteria, applied to students in gaelscoils. Not simply the advantage of doing Irish whilst actually knowing irish, (which you compare to a german student doing german here) but "free" points should you happen to have learned history, science or any other subject though irish rather than through english.

[kingdom hoop]

no really, you didnt. The bonus i was referring to is a Leaving Cert marking criteria, applied to students in gaelscoils. Not simply the advantage of doing Irish whilst actually knowing irish, (which you compare to a german student doing german here) but "free" points should you happen to have learned history, science or any other subject though irish rather than through english.

well then you didnt read/understand my post in response to your point, which you say is fact not opinion, that students who do their leaving cert in irish get free points.

i thought that you labeling this system as bestowing free points was inaccurate or at least didnt account for other factors. thus it was an overly simplistic approach to the issue, redolent of your anti-irish attitude.

admittedly my extreme, but tongue in cheek, comparison was probably too close to the subject matter. perhaps better would be to say the 33% 'free' you get with a packet of biscuits isnt literally free

the german thing was an analogy in reference to people gaining a seemingly unfair advantage without accounting for associated encumbrances.

'oh, look at that lucky guy he just got loads of free biscuits!' but then you realise the biscuits are chicken flavour and think that maybe he isnt so lucky after all. there will be people who like chicken biscuits, for whom the special offer is great, but most will choose not to buy the packet, or, the gung-ho amongst us will chance it and see the indestive process was overly revolting and, although we felt satisfied, we could have got to the same place just as easily with another biscuit. what appears on the surface a good deal may not always be so

[GavinZac]

'oh, look at that lucky guy he just got loads of free biscuits!' but then you realise the biscuits are chicken flavour and think that maybe he isnt so lucky after all. there will be people who like chicken biscuits, for whom the special offer is great, but most will choose not to buy the packet, or, the gung-ho amongst us will chance it and see the indestive process was overly revolting and, although we felt satisfied, we could have got to the same place just as easily with another biscuit. what appears on the surface a good deal may not always be so

so... you think that attending a gaelscoil is much like having to eat chicken biscuits?

[kingdom hoop]

so... you think that attending a gaelscoil is much like having to eat chicken biscuits?

by the way, the deleted message was nonconstructive

for the final time i will quote myself again to illustrate that the leaving cert marking system for geography etc through irish does not explicitly give out free points

seemingly unfair advantage without accounting for associated encumbrances.

what is the difficulty in understanding the above?

[GavinZac]

hey its your metaphor!

by the way, do you think the points are free?

of course they are. imagine two good students, identical in every way. except pupil A is sent to a gaelscoil, pupil B is sent to a normal school. They both do well enough to get 79% in every subject.
Pupil A is awarded an A, and can now look forward to doing medicine, or astrophysics.
Pupil B is awarded a B, and can possibly be a nurse. Maybe a teacher.

The only differentiating factor before the exam marks are awarded is which language they chose to study through for most of their lives. The excuse? Any politician attempting to correct this apartheid-like gross infringement of human right and equality law will be shot down and ridiculed as somehow less irish than those that sat idly by.