Can anyone say this isn't stupid?

[kingdom hoop]

explain?

you're rather shameful stereotyping of anyone in wales who tries promoting the language, which is easily, in your mind, transferable to ireland. thus it seems you're mind is made up that an irish person supporting irish must be some republican nationalist, or whatever. which is disrespectful, and makes arguing about the value of language with such a person difficult.

as it happens, there are plenty of welsh people who are simply happy they have their own language. for example gruff rhys of the super furry animals made an all-welsh record about 2 years ago, not to make more money but to display his grá for his language

[GavinZac]

you raise some good points but both the assumptions above (highlighted in bold) are both pretty sad and an insult to the "intellegences" of those who truly love the Irish language and see it as an integral part or Irish culture.

Perhaps it was these assumptions that lead to this....

hyperbole. usually used to express a point and lighten the mood. it doesnt seem to translate well into text for a disagree audience - a few of these may have been appropriate " ". of course i dont believe that those two groups make up the entirety of the irish-pushing minority but i was sarcastically suggesting that simply speaking another language does not make them any more "irish", no more than me knowing french would make me any more french.

[GavinZac]

you're rather shameful stereotyping of anyone in wales who tries promoting the language, which is easily, in your mind, transferable to ireland. thus it seems you're mind is made up that an irish person supporting irish must be some republican nationalist, or whatever. which is disrespectful, and makes arguing about the value of language with such a person difficult.

no, no, no no. you're reading too far into what i said. by saying the situation was comparable i didnt mean the reasons people have for promoting the language. I meant simpler things like the extent that the language fell out of use, the duration of its obscurity and the body of existing literature in that language. those are comparable. I entirely disagree with anyone suggesting the majority of people promoting the irish language are doing it for political reasons, as some Welsh nationalist politicians have.

as it happens, there are plenty of welsh people who are simply happy they have their own language. for example gruff rhys of the super furry animals made an all-welsh record about 2 years ago, not to make more money but to display his grá for his language

ok well its the first of heard of it but since you mention it im sure it went down well and was a valuable contribution to the culture of wales. now - does that devalue his earlier work?

[kingdom hoop]

now - does that devalue his earlier work?

not in my eyes. why?

just going back to a point when you disregarded place names, i often find it interesting when traveling the country to note that a place was called 'church of the hawthorn' or 'town of sive' etc, much more informative and easier to understand than rome - if i wasnt so knowledgeable how would i know romulos killed his brother remulos!!

[osarusan]

hyperbole. usually used to express a point and lighten the mood. it doesnt seem to translate well into text for a disagree audience - a few of these may have been appropriate " ". of course i dont believe that those two groups make up the entirety of the irish-pushing minority but i was sarcastically suggesting that simply speaking another language does not make them any more "irish" no more than me knowing french would make me any more french.

No need for the condescending explanation in the first paragraph, thanks. I understand the concept of hyperbole. I said in my first post that you made some good points, which you do, but which you yourself admitted needed clarification.

Re the second highlighted point...no you were not, you were questioning their motives in their attempts to speak Irish, in a real or hyperbolical way.


One of the few parts that I truly disagree with is this statement -

. an irish speaking ireland is as true to reality as a disney-themed florida. that was my point - why do we want to portray ourselves as something we are not?

This is entirely false. Irish culture has developed over a huge period of time, during most of which Irish was the language of the majority. Now I agree that the links between language and culture can be overstated, but there is a link nonetheless.

We are not an Irish-speaking Ireland now, but were for the vast majority of our existance.

Disney on the other hand has been around for a fraction of the time, and has had no historical influence, and is in no way a linguistic entity.

Are you really suggesting that the influence the Irish language has had on Ireland is as limited as the influence Disney has had on Florida? Do you really think it is a fair comparison?

[GavinZac]

not in my eyes. why?

its my opinion, that once he gets his message, his art through to his audience clearly and properly, the language he does it in is no more important than the media it is distributed on. obviously, this is not entirely true in the case of music as singing in a different language must obviously provide at the very least an opportunity to use more imaginative rhymes, but the point stands for more generalised culture.

just going back to a point when you disregarded place names, i often find it interesting when traveling the country to note that a place was called 'church of the hawthorn' or 'town of sive' etc, much more informative and easier to understand than rome - if i wasnt so knowledgeable how would i know romulos killed his brother remulos!!

yes, thats a charming fact of irish place names, that "bloody rock where seamas found a large cow" is actually a place in the midlands! (if you believe Trivial Pursuit, at least). I appreciate that. That kind of literalism and playful language is part of our culture that also shines through in our use of "irish dialect english". Unfortunately, some see that as a reason for needless tokenism, such as the case of renaming dingle as "Daingean", a completely fictional irish name. I'm all for preserving our culture (and as an example of such, irish place names are invaluable) but again, it is creating a fiction of disneyland proportions that i disagree with.

[GavinZac]

No need for the condescending explanation in the first paragraph, thanks. I understand the concept of hyperbole. I said in my first post that you made some good points, which you do, but which you yourself admitted needed clarification.

Language is only condescending if you make it. Who am I to assume that you would be aware of a debating/literary technique? Or our, no-doubt rapt, audience?

Re the second highlighted point...no you were not, you were questioning their motives in their attempts to speak Irish, in a real or hyperbolical way.

Sorry, but thats bull****. You're telling me what I meant now? or are you accusing me of lying?

One of the few parts that I truly disagree with is this statement - This is entirely false. Irish culture has developed over a huge period of time, during most of which Irish was the language of the majority. Now I agree that the links between language and culture can be overstated, but there is a link nonetheless.
We are not an Irish-speaking Ireland now, but were for the vast majority of our existance.

I'm only 22, how old are you? i disagree. more after the jump...

Disney on the other hand has been around for a fraction of the time, and has had no historical influence, and is in no way a linguistic entity.

Are you really suggesting that the influence the Irish language has had on Ireland is as limited as the influence Disney has had on Florida? Do you really think it is a fair comparison?

No, im not suggesting that. Irish of course had an influence on the development of our culture. It then fell by the wayside, while our culture continued to change with external and internal influences. So I'm not refering to past influences, but to current relevance.

[kingdom hoop]

[QUOTE=GavinZac;662426]

yes, thats a charming fact of irish place names, that "bloody rock where seamas found a large cow" is actually a place in the midlands! (if you believe Trivial Pursuit, at least). I appreciate that.

you say that having earlier said, in reference to place names;


It is irrelevant. It is the past. They are absorbed into the english language - as I said, they change and adapt. Its certainly valuable to know where they came from - but what value does that give sticking a sign up that says "telefon" instead of "telephone"?


its your problem if you cant understand, which is evident from below;


Unfortunately, some see that as a reason for needless tokenism, such as the case of renaming dingle as "Daingean", a completely fictional irish name.


daingean in fact translates as 'fort'. the people of dingle favoured daingean uí chuis which means 'fort of (yer man) chuis'. so, eh...

[osarusan]

This is entirely false. Irish culture has developed over a huge period of time, during most of which Irish was the language of the majority. Now I agree that the links between language and culture can be overstated, but there is a link nonetheless.

We are not an Irish-speaking Ireland now, but were for the vast majority of our existance.

i disagree. more after the jump...

Which point do you disagree with?

[GavinZac]

yes, thats a charming fact of irish place names, that "bloody rock where seamas found a large cow" is actually a place in the midlands! (if you believe Trivial Pursuit, at least). I appreciate that.

you say that having earlier said, in reference to place names;

more stuff

I said that they are absorbed into the english language. I said that in both posts

daingean in fact translates as 'fort'. the people of dingle favoured daingean uí chuis which means 'fort of (yer man) chuis'. so, eh...

I'm only going on what my (gaeilgóir! you can imagine that i've had these arguments on many a nothing-on-tv night) girlfriend said! coming back to the dingle controversy of a few years ago, that raises a point from that time - why is it that the irish language is foisted upon us in the most anglicised of areas and situations with the excuse that it is "our national tongue", and yet it is illegal to display the English version of a gaeltacht area (the root of the controversy in dingle where an area always known as dingle, especially to tourists, was undemocratically assigned an unused possible irish root)? Is that not a violation of our rights to our other official national language, English?

Which point do you disagree with?

that there is any tenable link. i explain what i mean further in the post.

[osarusan]

that there is any tenable link. i explain what i mean further in the post.

But in your post, you said this....

Irish of course had an influence on the development of our culture. It then fell by the wayside, while our culture continued to change with external and internal influences. So I'm not refering to past influences, but to current relevance.

...which suggests (to me at least) that you do feel Irish has had a tenable link with our culture and how it developed.

[pineapple stu]

coming back to the dingle controversy of a few years ago...where an area always known as dingle, especially to tourists, was undemocratically assigned an unused possible irish root)?

Given that the only tourist's opinion we have on the matter (from the Letters to the Irish Times around the time of the debate) expressed support for the move to rename Irish place names in Irish, why do you feel tourists should be force-fed English place names?

[osarusan]

Given that the only tourist's opinion we have on the matter (from the Letters to the Irish Times around the time of the debate) expressed support for the move to rename Irish place names in Irish, why do you feel tourists should be force-fed English place names?

If I am correct, in this case, it was not a re-naming as much as an invention of a new name?

[pineapple stu]

Well, that's a different issue, I suppose. I'm not sure about that. However, gavinzac is trying to argue that Irish is irrelevant, and that tourists are happy with names in English, whereas the only evidence we have from tourists is that they have no problems with names in Irish, and actually prefer them. Whether the name is genuine or not, although it sounds a contradiction to say it, isn't relevant to the point I'm making.

[GavinZac]

But in your post, you said this....

...which suggests (to me at least) that you do feel Irish has had a tenable link with our culture and how it developed.

how it developed. in the same fashion that hunting large animals had a tenable impact on the development of our brains and language in the past. it no longer has any impact today.

Given that the only tourist's opinion we have on the matter (from the Letters to the Irish Times around the time of the debate) expressed support for the move to rename Irish place names in Irish, why do you feel tourists should be force-fed English place names?

force-fed? thats rich given that it was the locals who were force fed something. the english and 'irish' name for the town co-existed in the past. i dont care if they decided to put up a guess at where the name Dingle came from, its the complete removal, without the residents consent, of the actual name of the place, Dingle from any signage around the town that i find ridiculous. How would you feel if one day, for seemingly no reason at all, all evidence of "Dublin" was removed from signage around the city?

[GavinZac]

However, gavinzac is trying to argue that Irish is irrelevant

true...

and (trying to argue) that tourists are happy with names in English

false

they have no problems with names in Irish, and actually prefer them. Whether the name is genuine or not, although it sounds a contradiction to say it, isn't relevant to the point I'm making.

is creating a fake image and idea of our country and culture not one more step toward being a micky mouse country? sure give the tourists what they want and bring back the horses and carts on o'connell street.

[kingdom hoop]

argh gavin you've created uncertainty. lads i can assure you 'daingean' is not made up, and more appropriately daingean ui chuis is the correct name. which translates as fort of chuis, fact. a point, particularly americans, tourists would find very interesting, 'yes the name of the town is named after the fort on that hill yonder, occupied by mr.chuis some 300 years ago'. much better than saying that england decreed that all place names must be anglicised so that they could get their tongue around the vernacular and suppress the influence of the irish language and thereby belittle our ancestors, but then thats not part of our culture either i guess

[pineapple stu]

How would you feel if one day, for seemingly no reason at all, all evidence of "Dublin" was removed from signage around the city?

Wouldn't bother me.

Anyways, you're flip flopping now. You're saying that we shouldn't change a place whose name is known to tourists, which is ignoring the fact that tourists appear unfazed at all by it.

You're reduced to tabloidising the issue, to be honest, likening Irish to dead monks, scribes and now horses and carts. Not particularly strong arguments, to be honest. You've ignored numerous salient points such as the actual rise in popularity in Irish today. The lack of support for your views indicates to me that they're not any sort of representation of the views held by people in general, even though you're quite adamant that the language is irrelevant, which is effectively force-feeding your views on to other people ("Why do we want to we want to portray ourselves as something we are not?", for example). You're also putting views into tourists' mouths (i.e. the notion that they're silly coming to Ireland looking for Irish).

If you can't make your argument without putting words in other people's mouths, your argument can't be very strong at all.

[osarusan]

Unbelievable!!!

Had to log back on to tell you all.........just as i was about to go to bed here in Japan.........what comes on the TV?

A 13 minute short film, made by Bord Scannan na hEireann and TG4........as gaeilge!

What a coincidence!!

Its pure sh!te though.

[GavinZac]

Wouldn't bother me. Anyways, you're flip flopping now. You're saying that we shouldn't change a place whose name is known to tourists, which is ignoring the fact that tourists appear unfazed at all by it.

These tourists being the ones that read the Irish times, obviously.

You're reduced to tabloidising the issue, to be honest, likening Irish to dead monks, scribes and now horses and carts. Not particularly strong arguments, to be honest. You've ignored numerous salient points such as the actual rise in popularity in Irish today.

what? where?

The lack of support for your views indicates to me that they're not any sort of representation of the views held by people in general

well, i'd be careful before i take foot.ie as a representation of the views of people in general! and besides there is at least one participant in this thread who has agreed with me.

even though you're quite adamant that the language is irrelevant, which is effectively force-feeding your views on to other people ("Why do we want to we want to portray ourselves as something we are not?", for example)

thats posing a question, which no-one has answered, not imposing my views. the truth of the situation is that we are not an irish speaking country. why the insistance on, to take a small, insignificant example compared to the waste in education and EU administration, irish language signs?

You're also putting views into tourists' mouths (i.e. the notion that they're silly coming to Ireland looking for Irish).

this is about the fourth time you've completely disregarded or "misinterpreted" what i've said. where did i say that? Who can blame tourists for coming to see something quaint and romantic?

If you can't make your argument without putting words in other people's mouths, your argument can't be very strong at all.

Something you could try adhering to yourself, given that you havent been very adept at representing what i've said.