Emelka Onwubiko

[Fergie's Son]

It's a much more complicated issue that has been presented here.

It is legitimate to ask, how many are too many? Put another way, is Ireland still Ireland if (over a relatively short period of time, please keep that in mind) Irish people are a minority in their own country? Is a massive displacement of an existing population with several others a good or a bad thing? Perhaps it is or perhaps it isn't but we should be able to discuss this issue openly.

Now this young man may very well be as Irish in spirit as anyone but that does not mean we can't discuss the dreadful abuse of the asylum system or the very real issue of minorities in Ireland.

Again, this is a complicated issue and one that has profound ramfications that go beyond football.

[charliesboots]

It's a much more complicated issue that has been presented here.

It is legitimate to ask, how many are too many? Put another way, is Ireland still Ireland if (over a relatively short period of time, please keep that in mind) Irish people are a minority in their own country? Is a massive displacement of an existing population with several others a good or a bad thing? Perhaps it is or perhaps it isn't but we should be able to discuss this issue openly.

Now this young man may very well be as Irish in spirit as anyone but that does not mean we can't discuss the dreadful abuse of the asylum system or the very real issue of minorities in Ireland.

Again, this is a complicated issue and one that has profound ramfications that go beyond football.

The us and them mentality is what racism feeds off. There is only one race of people on our poxy planet - the human race.

Irishness cannot be easily defined but I think it's pretty much agreed that feeling Irish is the most important aspect of it. A few examples;

Are Stephen McPhail and Ronan O'Gara Irish. Both born in the United States but brought up in Ireland. Yes they are.

What about Paul McGrath? Born in England to a Nigerian father but brought up in Ireland and identifying himself as being Irish. Yes he is Irish. I certainly wouldn't mind a team of Paul McGraths.

Is David Kelly Irish? Born and brought up in England to Irish parents but brought up as an Irishman living abroad. He is Irish.

Likewise Pat Dolan. As much as I don't like him he cannot be blamed for not being born or brought up in Ireland. What's certain is that he identifies himself as Irish (despite lying about his birthplace to increase his Irishness, which I feel is very disrespectful to the likes of David Kelly above). He is Irish.

Yare Jebefume, an old friend of mine who's parents fled Nigeria in the 70's and moved to Ireland. He grew up in Ireland feeling Irish. He is Irish.

People need to look beyond accents, colour, religion etc and accept that Irishness comes in many different forms. Emelka Onwubiko is Irish if he feels Irish.

The most important thing to me is that we have a team representing Ireland that want to represent Ireland as it is the country they associate themselves with. I couldn't give a sh!t if none were white, none were catholic once they felt Irish. That's how they would represent me, by being Irish too.

[Lionel Ritchie]

It's no different than having 15 kerrymen playing gaelic football in a Dublin shirt. I'm sure that wouldn't be popular with the Dubs support even if they did win an All Ireland!

whether it would be popular or not is moot ...but with neither interest nor familiarity with the rules of the GAA I know you're matter of factually comparing an apple and an orange.
I'll leave it for someone who knows their GAA stuff to blow you out of the water on this one though.

[lopez]

Lopez : Nice piece of Fisking....

Surely fisting?

...and if we really want to get absurd patrick pearse and dear old dev were less irish than duke of wellington and montgomery !! and what has this to do with soccer i hear you cry

I don't think either had Irish accents, so you're wrong! Actually you could add someone like Cathal Brugha and Robert Briscoe to Pearse and Dev. The latter's parents being both Lithuanian Jewish immigrants.

...The most important thing to me is that we have a team representing Ireland that want to represent Ireland as it is the country they associate themselves with. I couldn't give a sh!t if none were white, none were catholic once they felt Irish. That's how they would represent me, by being Irish too.

That's good enough for most Irish football fans.

[Reddladd]

Lionel Richie you'd really want to read my post again.
Other posters here inferred that my post was akin to what a member of the BNP might say. Their words, not mine.
I am not affiliated with any political party and don't feel the need to be, though my family would be FF.

If you don't know anything about Gaa then don't worry yourself about it!

Lastly, 'Rivers of blood speech', get over yourself. Talk about over reacting!

[Lionel Ritchie]

Lionel Richie you'd really want to read my post again.
Other posters here inferred that my post was akin to what a member of the BNP might say. Their words, not mine.
I am not affiliated with any political party and don't feel the need to be, though my family would be FF.

If you don't know anything about Gaa then don't worry yourself about it!

Lastly, 'Rivers of blood speech', get over yourself. Talk about over reacting!

Post re-read. Tongue in cheek noted this time (though sentence structure could've been better) Fair enough Reddladd. Apologies.

[BohsPartisan]

Tell what to Jack Charlton, that an Irish passport holder is a citizen of Ireland.
That citizenship bestows nationality. That being granted an Irish passport allows the person to be a recognised as an Irish national. And if you're good enough you can play for your country. Don't you think that Charlton already knows all that?

Tony Cascarino

[osarusan]

Tell that to Jack Charlton

Tony Cascarino

BohsPartisan, it sounds like you have some views on this subject....care to share them?

[BohsPartisan]

You should read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Turns out a few Jews rule the world through capitalism and communism.

Straying into off topic area here but, Atlantean Irish is a serious work that is very well researched, its not a crackpot theory.

The fact is that, linguistically the Irish and Scottish languages are almost identical, and are closely related to other so - called 'Celtic' languages. If there were no Celts, so be it, but these languages developed differently from other European language families.

Not denying it. Add Manx to that. It doesn't make them "Celtic" though. It is believed that Scotland and the Isle of Man (Mananan Mac Lír - Irish sea god) were colonised at one time by the Irish. The Irish were known in ancient times as Scotti.

Still, if it makes you happy, then IMO someone whose family has been in Ireland for two thousand years since they left Africa, but whose parents emigrated through lack of work, is no less an Irishman than an African that turned up ten years ago.

No disagreement either. Was just throwing a spanner in the works of the "what it is to be Irish debate"

With three English grandparents, I'd be surprised too.

My dad is English.

Maybe the whole Irish/Celts-not Celts thing could get its own thread in current affairs.

[BohsPartisan]

BohsPartisan, it sounds like you have some views on this subject....care to share them?

Tony Cascarino had zero claim to Irish citizenship, yet no one is saying that its a disgrace he played for Ireland. Why? because he scored goals. If he was black though I'd bet there would have been more thorough research into his ancestry.

My point about Charlton was that he was more concerned about assembling a team of footballers than worrying about if they were Irish or not. If they weren't Irish, they could be made so.

[NeilMcD]

To be fair I think the Cascarino thing only came out when we wrote the book and before that only Cascarino and and a few close friends new about it when he reaslied it about 60 caps into this Ireland career. It was an unfortunate thing to happen for Cascarino to be honest. Not that I am a great fan of his.

[Fingal hoop]

The us and them mentality is what racism feeds off. There is only one race of people on our poxy planet - the human race.

Irishness cannot be easily defined but I think it's pretty much agreed that feeling Irish is the most important aspect of it. A few examples;

Are Stephen McPhail and Ronan O'Gara Irish. Both born in the United States but brought up in Ireland. Yes they are.

What about Paul McGrath? Born in England to a Nigerian father but brought up in Ireland and identifying himself as being Irish. Yes he is Irish. I certainly wouldn't mind a team of Paul McGraths.

Is David Kelly Irish? Born and brought up in England to Irish parents but brought up as an Irishman living abroad. He is Irish.

Likewise Pat Dolan. As much as I don't like him he cannot be blamed for not being born or brought up in Ireland. What's certain is that he identifies himself as Irish (despite lying about his birthplace to increase his Irishness, which I feel is very disrespectful to the likes of David Kelly above). He is Irish.

Yare Jebefume, an old friend of mine who's parents fled Nigeria in the 70's and moved to Ireland. He grew up in Ireland feeling Irish. He is Irish.

People need to look beyond accents, colour, religion etc and accept that Irishness comes in many different forms. Emelka Onwubiko is Irish if he feels Irish.

The most important thing to me is that we have a team representing Ireland that want to represent Ireland as it is the country they associate themselves with. I couldn't give a sh!t if none were white, none were catholic once they felt Irish. That's how they would represent me, by being Irish too.

what about James Connoly - is he not Irish??

[lopez]

Straying into off topic area here but, Atlantean Irish is a serious work that is very well researched, its not a crackpot theory.

Are you saying the Protocols are?

Only joking - too much accusations of racism flying around here. I haven't read the book. I remember a series during the eighties, whose one resounding memory for me was the sexual intiation of a drink made of sperm and menstrual blood. However I've read a review on Amazon, and it leaves open a few questions. 'The Gaelic language itself is non-European' is one. It's syntax is similar to other European languages, including Romance/latin, even though the Romans never got to Ireland (as conquerors rather than tourists). E.G. Tu is the same word for you, and there are two verbs for to be in Irish. Also, the word for two stretches the breath of Indo-European languages being the word for two in Punjabi, Urdu and Hindi (the most eastern, Bengali, uses du).

Another is '[a] real kick in the teeth to racists and those who claim the Irish as a "European" Indo-European or Aryan "Race".' Is this being serious, when But I personally still go with the story that an invasion of Millesians came from Spain. However, they aren't the same people in Africa now. As for the music thing, I doubt historians in 2,000 years time will consider the Japanese as Spanish because they wear Real Madrid tops (soon to be replaced by LA Galaxy).

No disagreement either. Was just throwing a spanner in the works of the "what it is to be Irish debate"

Apologies if I appear narrow, but being any nationality is not simplistic. We all have different politics, musical tastes, everything. The point was that I believe that a strong family bond and identity will always outbid what the state determines. Even more so in Ireland and Britain which are not totalitarian societies, seeking to idoctrinate a formal identity (most of the time at least).

Tony Cascarino had zero claim to Irish citizenship...

Tony Cascarino was first capped under Hand, so Jack had nothing to with his playing for Ireland. He was ineligible, but not in the way you thought. If his mother had opted for Irish citizenship (I think she was the one that was adopted) - as I can remember - he would have been OK. She refused. I know for a fact that adopted children (both from birth and by a remarried parent) are entitiled to Irish citizenship if the adopting parent is Irish.

[BohsPartisan]

Also, the word for two stretches the breath of Indo-European languages being the word for two in Punjabi, Urdu and Hindi (the most eastern, Bengali, uses du).

Yes but these languages exerted an influence on North African languages stretching from india through Iran to the middle east and North Africa. I think the series you refer to was directed by Bob Quinn too. I think he does make some leaps of the imagination but over all it is a compelling hypothesis.
On the Milesians, I don't dispute they probably came from Spain, but the Milesian "invasion" or migration was probably quite small. There is evidence to suggest that the roots of the Irish language are actually pre-milesian (with the people of Newgrange and the Céide fields. (The word Doire means woodland but placenames bearing the word would have had no woodland when the Mlesians arrived, but would have had in neolithic times.)
I'd also say its a stong possibility that the Milesians themselves came from a previous migration from North Africa.


SERIOUSLY THOUGH, MODS, CAN THESE OFF TOPIC POSTS BE MOVED TO AN APPROPRIATE FORUM?

[Macy]

Tony Cascarino had zero claim to Irish citizenship

eh, adoptive children are treated in the same way as natural (probably not the right term) children. He had exactly the same claim as if he was born to his parents. He should have zero respect for using such a pathetic line to sell a book though.

[BohsPartisan]

eh, adoptive children are treated in the same way as natural (probably not the right term) children. He had exactly the same claim as if he was born to his parents. He should have zero respect for using such a pathetic line to sell a book though.

But as was pointed out his mother was not an Irish citizen. She never availed of it.
Anyway, I'm not arguing the rights and wrongs of Cascarino's caps here, just using it (and the whole Cgarlton era) as an example of double standards with regards to this Irish/Nigerian chap.

[Block G Raptor]

But hey, I'm sure birthplace will remain the key, not those insignificant things like family, culture, and ethnicity.

What Makes Posters on here Think that the Immigrant population would be Less inclined to consider themselves Nigerian/Romainian whatever than the Like's of Andy Townsend or Ray Houghton who though born in another country considered themselves Irish because of there ancestory.can people on here not see the Irony or is it just that Ireland is so special that everyone wants to be Irish, Jaysus I thought it was only the yanks that thought like that

[NeilMcD]

My view is that you can have somebody born in Ireland but with a heritage of Nigeria play for either Ireland and Nigeria and there is no problem in that

In addition you can have somebody born in England with Irish heritage and they can play for Ireland or Nigeria and I have no problem either way with that.


Finally you can have the old fashioned way of born in Ireland and playing for Ireland. They are all valid in my view as long as the person is not doing it purely out of convenience or purely for career purposes.

[Block G Raptor]

They are all valid in my view as long as the person is not doing it purely out of convenience or purely for career purposes.

At Last some sense

[lopez]

My view is that you can have somebody born in Ireland but with a heritage of Nigeria play for either Ireland and Nigeria and there is no problem in that

In addition you can have somebody born in England with Irish heritage and they can play for Ireland or Nigeria and I have no problem either way with that.

Finally you can have the old fashioned way of born in Ireland and playing for Ireland. They are all valid in my view as long as the person is not doing it purely out of convenience or purely for career purposes.

I've been following Ireland all my life, always had an Irish passport, never had a British passport, and never considered myself British or English. But I've just been called up for the British pie-eating team in the forthcoming World Pie-eating qualifiers. I haven't got enough talent to make the Irish pie-eating team which has been my life-long ambition. But anyway, I'm thinking of saying 'f*ck my principles, I love eating pies (favourite is Steak & Kidney, but am partial to a decent Melton Mowbray). Someone tell me if that isn't as much a move for convenience or career purpose than some of the players that have represented Ireland?

...is it just that Ireland is so special that everyone wants to be Irish, Jaysus I thought it was only the yanks that thought like that

The wackiest claim to an Irish granny I've heard was a Serbian I met in Belgrade before the 1998 game. He was training to be an Serbian Orthodox druid, yet claimed he had an Irish granny. Obviously never heard of Ne Temere. He didn't even know where she was from either.