Dawkin's God Delusion

[BohsPartisan]

It's the equivalent of me saying to you that all Communists believe in gulags and such

Not really. More so it strengthens my arguement that the Stalinists were not Communists because there are a set of criteria that one must satisfy to make you a communist which the Stalinists did not satisfy.

[Lim till i die]

Someone should edit those parts out of the bible then? And get everyone to stop preaching them? And perhaps someone should tell the Pope, so he can start recruiting female priests instead of using them as lackies?

Think your mixing up Roman Catholicism and Christianity there with the last point

The Bible is a book of its time. You don't have to take it literally in this day and age to be a good Christian. That's called fundamentalism

Not really. More so it strengthens my arguement that the Stalinists were not Communists because there are a set of criteria that one must satisfy to make you a communist which the Stalinists did not satisfy.

But maybe the woman raping gay bashers above weren't Christians then??

Who are you to set their criteria??

Certainly can't remember Jesus Christ (the clues in the name) saying that any of the above were particularly groovy

[BohsPartisan]

You don't have to take it literally in this day and age to be a good Christian. That's called fundamentalism

Religious doctrine is fundamental to following a religion. If you take out the doctrine you have nothing left - no religion, just a package.
Anyway you can't spell fundementalism without fun!

PS. Would the christian community here please define they're faith/what they believe in. Every time our side has a shot at goal you move the goalposts.

But maybe the woman raping gay bashers above weren't Christians then??

Who are you to set their criteria??

The Bible sets the criteria. Its not called the Bible for nothing.

[Lim till i die]

Religious doctrine is fundamental to following a religion. If you take out the doctrine you have nothing left - no religion, just a package.
Anyway you can't spell fundementalism without fun!

The Bible sets the criteria. Its not called the Bible for nothing.

You can be a Christian by interpreting the bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ (Once again, clues in the name) in you own way

Are you telling me you take all your socialist doctrine literally??

PS. Would the christian community here please define they're faith/what they believe in. Every time our side has a shot at goal you move the goalposts.

Nowhere near being a Christian I'm afraid man. You'll have to wait for someone else

[BohsPartisan]

You can be a Christian by interpreting the bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ (Once again, clues in the name) in you own way

Are you telling me you take all your socialist doctrine literally??

In any religion or philosophy there are key articles of faith/doctrine/theory that you more or less must follow. Outside of that there is leeway for interpretation. All Marxists worth the name believe that the key to socialism is the democratic control of the means of production by the working class. Outside of that there is leeway for differences.
The problem is a lot of people say they are christian because they were told they were by their parents but when you challenge them on any aspects of christian doctrine they say oh well I don't believe that exactly. You take them up on something else and its, oh I don't believe that either. It is my contention that these people are not christians. They haven't interpreted the bible either, most of them have never read the thing. What they believe in is some vague idea of a being who is omnipotent and life after death in some form or other. It takes a lot more than that to be a christian.

[Lim till i die]

In any religion or philosophy there are key articles of faith/doctrine/theory that you more or less must follow. Outside of that there is leeway for interpretation. All Marxists worth the name believe that the key to socialism is the democratic control of the means of production by the working class. Outside of that there is leeway for differences.

Given the amount of Marxist theory around (I'll grant you're the expert) you've set a far smaller set of criteria for being a Marxist there than you did for being a Christian above.

The problem is a lot of people say they are christian because they were told they were by their parents but when you challenge them on any aspects of christian doctrine they say oh well I don't believe that exactly. You take them up on something else and its, oh I don't believe that either. It is my contention that these people are not christians. They haven't interpreted the bible either, most of them have never read the thing.

Do I detect the pungent odour of liberal-leftie arrogance. You know, the type that makes you agree with most of what Michael Moore says but still want to punch him in the face

Without being able to speak for everyone on this thread I know for a fact jebus has read the bible quite a lot

What they believe in is some vague idea of a being who is omnipotent and life after death in some form or other.

Amongst lots of other things in most cases

It takes a lot more than that to be a christian

As much as I like you BP I don't think you're in a position to be setting the rules to join the Christian club

[BohsPartisan]

Given the amount of Marxist theory around (I'll grant you're the expert) you've set a far smaller set of criteria for being a Marxist there than you did for being a Christian above.

Not really if you take Capital, The Manifesto, The Civil War in France and Engels's Anti-Duhring as the key works and the rest as interpretation. Oviously I would add some of Lenin and Trotsky's work, Rosa Luxemburg and some Ted Grant but to call yourself a Marxist you don't need to agree with these, only the Marx/Engels ones.

Do I detect the pungent odour of liberal-leftie arrogance.

Yes.
Seriously, just based on discussions I have with people. you know at coffee break between the Cheltenham tips.

Without being able to speak for everyone on this thread I know for a fact jebus has read the bible quite a lot

So have I. And I've read a lot of the non-canonical gospels.
Thats why I'd like to know what criteria he sets for being a Christian/what he believes.

As much as I like you BP I don't think you're in a position to be setting the rules to join the Christian club

But I'm not. I'm just going by what the governing bodies of the Christian churches say the rules are, and what is in the Bible.

[Lim till i die]

So have I. And I've read a lot of the non-canonical gospels.

But I'm not. I'm just going by what the governing bodies of the Christian churches say the rules are, and what is in the Bible.

Some key points of christian doctrine:
Sex outside Marriage is a sin.
Sex is for procreation not pleasure
Abortion is murder.
Sodomy is one of the worst sins EVER! Worse than rape. In fact rape isn't too bad because;
Women are inferior to men.
Jesus Christ is the son of God, he died on the cross and rose from the dead after three days visited his mates and then ascended in to heaven.

Show me where Jesus Christ (once again clues in the name) said all these things.

Without me being an expert I reckon you'll have a job

Thats why I'd like to know what criteria he sets for being a Christian/what he believes.

I'm sure the man himself will help you with that at some stage this evening

[BohsPartisan]

Show me where Jesus Christ (once again clues in the name) said all these things.

Without me being an expert I reckon you'll have a job

Jesus (if he really existed) was a Jew, he followed the Jewish teachings i.e. the old testament. All of that is in there.

[Lim till i die]

Jesus (if he really existed) was a Jew, he followed the Jewish teachings i.e. the old testament. All of that is in there.

So you're not certain if he existed but you are certain he followed Jewish teaching............

[BohsPartisan]

So you're not certain if he existed but you are certain he followed Jewish teaching............

The fictional character or historical figure that christians follow was himself a follower of the Abrahamic tradition.

PS. 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, homosexuals will not be allowed into heaven.

[Lim till i die]

The fictional character or historical figure that christians follow was himself a follower of the Abrahamic tradition.

Why do the whole "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" thing so if he was such an ardent follower of the old testament??

PS. 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, homosexuals will not be allowed into heaven

Did jesus say that? I'm actually a bit surprised

[BohsPartisan]

Why do the whole "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" thing so if he was such an ardent follower of the old testament??

He was without sin wasn't he?

Did jesus say that? I'm actually a bit surprised

Paul I think.

[Poor Student]

BP, the Jewish religion at the time of Christ was divided among different factions with differing ideas on the Law and so forth. Some people theorise that Jesus was of the Essene tradition which was quite different from mainstream Jewish tradition. You can't just lump him into one Jewish pile. There were plenty of people lurking around Palestine at that time who had no interest in following most or all of Jewish tradition rather like what you're saying about the Christianity of today.

Being the educated and knowledgeable poster I know you to be, I think you know that many Christians believe that a New Covenant was established with God following Christ which represents a new departure from the previous Covenant. You may (in fact I know you do ) think that's a pile of rubbish but your insistence on Old Testament teachings and traditions is rather like the most fundamentalist Christianity. You know there's theological arguments to support that. It's an unusual stance you're taking as an atheist, with the strength of a fundementalist you're insisting that only a certain strand of Christianity counts as Christian to you, yet you don't believe anyway.

[Lim till i die]

Ya, What he Said

[BohsPartisan]

Fair comment but alot of that is based on contensious historical "evidence" (hearsay).
Somthing on the Essenes - it seems two Foot.ie posters are experts on this:

According to Josephus, they had customs and observances such as collective ownership (War 2.122; Ant. 18.20), elected a leader to attend to the interests of them all whose orders they obeyed (War 2.123, 134), were forbidden from swearing oaths (War 2.135) and sacrificing animals (Philo, §75)

[dahamsta]

Think your mixing up Roman Catholicism and Christianity there with the last point

Roman Catholicism isn't the predominant Christian faith in Ireland?

The Bible is a book of its time. You don't have to take it literally in this day and age to be a good Christian. That's called fundamentalism

I'd imagine you're in the minority on that point. (On which you should be congratulated. But it does beg the question: if you're intelligent to know what's "good" and "bad", why would you need to refer to a silly work of fiction like the bible?)

adam

[jebus]

Jesus there's a lot to get through here, don't know where to start. Anyway I'll start by saying that Christianity constantly evolves throughout the ages, whilst some may believe that what was adhered to back in through the centuries is relevant today, the majority of Christians I've found don't. Partisan you may have had different experiences of Christians than I have, but thats what I've found.

Anyway considering Christ was scapegoated for supposedly trying to turn people away from the Old Teachings I think its fair to say that he didn't live his life as accordance with the teachings of the Old Testament (for the record I think the Old Testament is a pile of garbage that was designed to scare people into fearing, not loving, God, so I'd rather nor have to answer for whats in there).

Anyway back to you asking what I believe a Christian to be, well I'll first say that I don't think there is a set criteria in modern Christians. Some still believe that abortion is murder, I don't. Some still believe homosexuality is a sin, I don't. I've honestly never met one who thought women were inferior, and to be honest I think the New Testament went along way to correcting the notion of women as betrayors and below man that the Old Testament set out (as I say I think that book is garbage). Hell I don't even believe that there is one God hanging over us all, so I don't believe in a single Creator, and there are a few Christians I know who believe similiar (you atheists should try asking us more what we think/believe by the way, instead of following Dawkins method of 'I can insult you better, that means I'm smarter'). More so I believe in a life force moving through everything and constantly in flux with all around it. I think this is where life came from, comes from, and will continue to come from. Can I explain it better, nope, and I don't think humans are meant to, to be honest

So you're probably wondering why I even call myself a Christian, well the thing is is that I've read the New Testament straight through twice, and constantly go back and open it up and read a page or two here or there, and what I've taken from it is a message of honesty and love. I think what you say the Bible teaches us is the exact opposite of what is in the New Testament. I think Jesus constantly tells us we are all equal and that we should all treat each other as so, 'do onto others as you would have others do onto you' for example, (may not be directly quoted correctly, never been good at remembering passages of any book) and I think the stories of the New Testament all look to people finding peace amongst themselves and each other, both messages are ones I think are very valid today. So whilst I don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I do have respect for him, and so react when people take cheap shots (Jesus is a **** t-shirts), try to blacken his name in the interest of selling a few books (Dawkins), or just attack him for no reason other to make themselves feel superior (quite a few people).

As for the Catholic Church, well I think they have twisted the word of Jesus for their own good, and so I consider them more a scourge of Christianity than anything else

[dahamsta]

As for the Catholic Church, well I think they have twisted the word of Jesus for their own good, and so I consider them more a scourge of Christianity than anything else

Amen brother. Well, apart from the "word of jesus" bit.

[BohsPartisan]

Anyway considering Christ was scapegoated for supposedly trying to turn people away from the Old Teachings

Scapegoated for it but denied it strenuously. He refers to the ten commandments in his teachings.

. Hell I don't even believe that there is one God hanging over us all, so I don't believe in a single Creator, and there are a few Christians I know who believe similiar ... More so I believe in a life force moving through everything and constantly in flux with all around it. I think this is where life came from, comes from, and will continue to come from.

See this is what I mean. What you believe is closer to Budhism or dare I say it, Jedi-ism than Christianity. For what its worth take a few steps in a materialist direction and you have my views on the universe.

So whilst I don't believe that Jesus was the Son of God, I do have respect for him ...

Again thats pretty much central to being a Christian.