Dawkin's God Delusion

**Macy** · 27/02/2007, 1:34 PM

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Praise be the rooster!

He's not the rooster. He's a very naughty duck...

**Macy** · 27/02/2007, 1:59 PM

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Praise be the rooster!

He's not the rooster. He's a very naughty duck...

**Schumi** · 27/02/2007, 2:05 PM

Welease the wooster.

**John83** · 27/02/2007, 2:12 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

I don't think there are a few hundred versions of the story.

There are about 20 gospels known, though we don't have complete copies of them all. I think there are a few which we don't have any surviving copy of - the church had a nasty habit of burning the less canonical of them.

The canonical ones were only picked ~400AD I think.

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

On a related topic, I see James Cameron is now claiming he's found Jesus' tomb. It was on the front page of the Examiner today. No idea how he's worked that out, but there you go.

That's not all he's claiming.

Originally Posted by Macy

He's not the rooster. He's a very naughty duck...

Careful now, or we'll have to declare a jihad on you.

**BohsPartisan** · 27/02/2007, 2:18 PM

The Library in UCD has a few copies of the Nag Hammadi Library (Heretical gospels)

**dahamsta** · 27/02/2007, 2:23 PM

Via.

**BohsPartisan** · 27/02/2007, 2:35 PM

Praise be the Rooster.

**finlma** · 27/02/2007, 3:10 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Again though, you're ignoring the stock in oral word, learning by rote, etc, etc.

So there was some guy standing beside the cross telling everyone to learn by rote what happens and not to embelish the story. It would be naiive in the extreme to think that the story did not change and grow arms and legs. It happens every day in our culture even with proper recording equipment.

On another note the New Testement is full of contractictions about when and where Jesus was born. Thomas, whose stories were not included in the Bible but are well respected, wrote many accounts of Jesus playing tricks on his friends and using his powers to fire cups, spoons and the like around a room.

**pineapple stu** · 27/02/2007, 5:12 PM

Originally Posted by John83

There are about 20 gospels known, though we don't have complete copies of them all. The canonical ones were only picked ~400AD I think.

I'm aware of that. It's still not the "hundreds" that were claimed, nor anything close to it.

Originally Posted by John83

That's not all he's claiming.

I'm aware of that. I put it up purely for general interest, seeing as it was linked to the thread. For what it's worth, I think it's highly unlikely he's right, if only for the reason that Jesus' tomb must be one of the most sought-after items of the past 2000 years, and the chances are someone else has found it/robbed from it in the meantime. The Holy Cross was allegedly found in 300AD, and the Magi are allegedly interred in Koln, for example, which shows the interest in the search. Still, good luck to him. I can see the book coming out in a few years. And obviously the film is on the way. Or am I just cynical?

Originally Posted by finlma

So there was some guy standing beside the cross telling everyone to learn by rote what happens and not to embelish the story. It would be naiive in the extreme to think that the story did not change and grow arms and legs. It happens every day in our culture even with proper recording equipment.

Again, you're completely ignoring my point.

You compare to our modern culture - I've said you can't do that.

You say there was someone telling everyone to remember what was going on by rote - that's not my point either. What I am saying is that people, when recording stories of note and gravity, they would be almost indoctrinated to passing the story largely unchanged down through the (2) generations. Totally different thing.

**BohsPartisan** · 27/02/2007, 5:14 PM

Are you suggesting the Fenian Cycle and the Ulster cycle weren't embellished by story tellers?

**pineapple stu** · 27/02/2007, 5:19 PM

I'm suggesting I wouldn't dismiss them purely becuse they were written after the event, having come down through a couple of generations by word of mouth.

In addition, the Irish mentality of the time would have been a warrior mentality, prone to showing how great their achievements were. The Jews of the time were rather a boring-sounding people, who believed they would be damned if thy walked more than a mile on the Sabbath, let alone make up stories about a Saviour, and so there isn't an exact correlation which can be drawn between the two.

But hey, maybe they are all rotting in a non-existing hell.

**Poor Student** · 27/02/2007, 6:30 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

The Jews of the time were rather a boring-sounding people, who believed they would be damned if thy walked more than a mile on the Sabbath, let alone make up stories about a Saviour, and so there isn't an exact correlation which can be drawn between the two.

That's a pretty reductionist description of 8 million or so people with a big diversity in theological thought and level of devoutness.

**BohsPartisan** · 27/02/2007, 9:06 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

In addition, the Irish mentality of the time would have been a warrior mentality, prone to showing how great their achievements were. The Jews of the time were rather a boring-sounding people,

Hang on, have you not read the old testament? Smiting, rape, pillage and incest right left and centre. Sounds more like your average week in Brookside.

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Via.

Feckin hell thats scary stuff.

**pineapple stu** · 27/02/2007, 9:56 PM

Originally Posted by Poor Student

That's a pretty reductionist description of 8 million or so people with a big diversity in theological thought and level of devoutness.

Maybe. I don't pretend to be an expert on the issue, although I've read a couple of general books on it, and the general impression I picked up was as noted above. It's a generalisation, granted, but I think an acceptable one in the context I used it, which was to show that, by and large, the Jews weren't a warrior race who would typically exaggerate stories in the manner BohsPartisan is suggesting.

**finlma** · 27/02/2007, 9:58 PM

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

Hang on, have you not read the old testament? Smiting, rape, pillage and incest right left and centre. Sounds more like your average week in Brookside.

And don't forget a small dashing of homophobia along with a serving of racism. Sure isn't God a lovely fella.

**BohsPartisan** · 27/02/2007, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

the Jews weren't a warrior race

Read the old testament, particularly the book of Judges. 10,000 infidels smited in the first paragraph.

**jebus** · 27/02/2007, 11:20 PM

So what are we arguing about at the moment? That God is a racist, homophobic rapist? Or that the writers of the Testaments made a mess of it?

**Poor Student** · 27/02/2007, 11:33 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Maybe. I don't pretend to be an expert on the issue, although I've read a couple of general books on it, and the general impression I picked up was as noted above. It's a generalisation, granted, but I think an acceptable one in the context I used it, which was to show that, by and large, the Jews weren't a warrior race who would typically exaggerate stories in the manner BohsPartisan is suggesting.

It's not a good argument at all. The Maccabee Revolt, the subsequent aggressive expansion of the Jewish kingdom under the Hasmonaeans and forcible conversion of Gentiles and massacre of Hellenists, the strife under the Herodians, the Jewish Revolt of 66 AD and the viscous massacre of Greeks. What exactly do you define as warrior-like if not all that? You don't have to be a "warrior race" to embellish things anyway. Greek and Roman historians made embellishments all the time. Josephus, a Jew, did so himself. Christianity had spread to Hellenized Jews and gentiles by the time the New Testament material was being composed. St Paul was a Jew from Asia Minor. You can't just build an argument on one sentence saying no Jew would be likely to change the truth based on some loose generalisation.