Back above Northern Ireland

[lopez]

...P.S. I personally couldn't care less that we are above NI in the rankings. NI have found their level. With the players we have we should easily be a top twenty team. How many countries boast a full starting 11 (and some of our subs to boot) that ply their trade exclusively in one of the top 3 leagues in the world ? Not 20 anyway.

Carefull now. That 'PS' at the end will only prove to this eejit that you really do consider NI as rivals.

You're right about the Republic. We may well be short of some of the quality of the past, but that doesn't exclude the fact that we have a whole team playing regularly in an elite World league. Our poor results of late are purely through a cr*p manager. And when NI fans - who really do give a toss about their 'nearest neighbours' decline - start stating 'Staunton Must Stay' then that's where our problems lie.

Earth to Ealing: We can't do international rivalries with 'provinces', hence why I find your 'nearest neighbours' statement pathetically hysterical. May I point you to your nearest provincial neighbours: Scotland. I believe they've stitched up the IFA more times than we have, but such is your racial affinity to them and racial hostility to everyone in Ireland that doesn't see themselves as British, that you seem very concerned on ourweeminds about the players we are 'poaching' from them.

[EalingGreen]

Glad you cleared that Mexico mystery up for me, it looks like being a Northern Ireland fan sounds like laugh a minute stuff. After all you get to spend god knows how long watching your team go without scoring a goal never mind winning

I can assure you that we NI fans are enjoying ourselves hugely, thank you very much - not least because we're scoring goals these days. Anyhow, it ill behoves an ROI fan to lecture us on enjoyment, if this Board is anything to go by:
Ideas for legitimate & peaceful protest
Why do Ireland fans...
Is anyone here hoping for defeat?
The Robbie Keane Discussion (i.e. slagging off) thread
Stan Watch
Questions for the FAI
Wikipedia Rant
New Ireland Manager
How many signatures do we need?
The players are getting off scot free
Irish team don't care about Ireland
Delaney Out
What is wrong with us?
Etc etc etc etc

P.S. The reason why I live in Ealing has no relevance to the debate, nor is it any concern of yours - play the ball, not the man.

[EalingGreen]

All three are still ahead of the muppet state in the FIFA rankings. Brings you down to earth a bit that.

There's hardly any shame in being behind England or Spain in the rankings - even if our victories over them made a wee dent in their points total (or haven't you been following Spain's plummet down the rankings?)

And as for the ROI, you're not going to get to play San Marino every game, in February or any other month, so don't get too excited about your "dead cat bounce". I am content to wait until after the next pair of ECQ games in March.

[EalingGreen]

Not interested in him [Taylor]. Only players that are eligible to play for Ireland would I consider whether they could get into the team or not. B*llocks about your ringers are all conjecture. To use one of your well worn favourite statements, 'it's irrelevant horlicks.'

OK, if Big Maik is to be excluded, our back-up is Roy Carroll. Are you saying he wouldn't get picked ahead of Henderson? (Actually, if Stan were the manager, it's entirely possible... )

[geysir]

These days the only time the North registers on my radar is that it's bad news to be anywhere near them in the rankings.
When we got them in a Qual. group, my reaction was, féck, not that shower who would actually think it means something (more than 3 points) to beat us.
The reality is (like a Father Jack drooling) we are only interested in the best of their footballing youth. Being handsome doesn't matter, football ability is top priority, for starters anybody with a fenian sounding name, then anybody else, the more Gibsons the merrier.
After about 5 zillion posts on the owc forum on the subject of young player exodus to the south, they still don´t grasp the FIFA rulings on the matter.

We are not beggars, we are vampires.

[EalingGreen]

whats going on in the north is how a bunch of elder journeymen at the twilight of their careers and youngsters playing at a low level can be inspired by a great man motivator such as sanchez.

Technically and talent wise, man for man, I would have none of them in our team except for davis who is clearly an oustanding talent. Sproule has pace but he's clearly a knacker so you're welcome to him.

as usual "ealing green" is wearing his "orange tinted specs" thinking that 2 great results against england (last campaign) and spain (fair enough) will mean anything when this season is over.

i'll be putting some cash on spain to put 4 past the north in the return game as they have a history of hammering minnows at home who have upset them away.

Frankly, I'm not bothered how or why our players are getting the results they are - I'm just enjoying that they are, while it lasts.

As for our wins over England and Spain, if all they will mean at the end of the season is that we had two competitive victories over top-ranked opposition, then that will do for me. (Btw, remind me when the ROI last managed that? Or even one?)

As for your putting cash on Spain - fire away. Imo, it's not an outrageous punt; indeed, I might even have something like it myself, as insurance against the cost of my trip. But whatever the outcome, I'm confident I'll enjoy myself. (Btw, remind me how much you enjoyed your last trip away with the ROI team... )

[EalingGreen]

I'm sure you're well aware that him scoring so many goals for NI is irrelevant. The majority of those goals have been against sub standard opposition bar the notable exceptions you have mentioned (mainly due to NI not being able to secure friendlies against decent opposition for a long time due to their lowly ranking). The phrase big fish in a small pond immediately springs to mind.

Kiatisuk "Zico" Senamuang that well known Thai international striker has 63 goals in 117 international games a far better record than both Healy's and Henry's.

So as you know and as we all know those stats you quote regularly regarding Healy are pointless. Long, Stokes, Doyle, Keane and even Morrison are all better players and would get into any team before him (even NI). He's a similar player as far as I'm concerned to Connolly, a decent Championship striker who has found his level but will never be good enough to play regularly in the Premiership.

Also EalingGreen when did you beat us when you played us last? Refresh my memory?

P.S. I personally couldn't care less that we are above NI in the rankings. NI have found their level (in fact some could argue that they are exceeding it). With the players we have we should easily be a top twenty team.

Where to start on this garbage? I could go through Healy's international record match by match and demonstrate that his record in competitive matches is up there with friendlies and against "big" teams as well as minnows. It would demonstrate that in over 50 matches (so no flash in the pan), his goals per game ratio compares with Thierry Henry, the latters gained in an incomparably better team.
By contrast, there is a Robbie Keane thread on this very Board which demonstrates his lack of goals in the big games and against top opposition.

As for your "big fish in small pond" metaphor, Keane and Healy both play in the same pond i.e. same Confederation, against the same opposition in the same competitions, so may fairly be compared. Whereas your Thai striker is utterly irrelevant to this debate.
However, when comparing Keane and Healy, it is worth pointing out that more of Keane's caps have been in a decent team than Healy's; also, since the ROI have always been seeded higher during both their careers, the ROI will generally have been drawn against weaker teams in tournaments, with NI drawn against stonger opposition.

Regarding the other comparisons, it is your opinion that Morrison, Doyle, Stokes, Long and Keane are "better" club players than Healy - my contrary opinion on at least some of those won't change anything.
But I was talking about international football. Refresh me as to the international goalscoring records of all those players - without looking them up, I am certain that only Keane even bears comparison.
And as for David Connolly - good player, good guy, good servant for his country etc etc. But again, I would ask you how many caps, how many goals?

As for the last time NI played ROI:

29/05/1999, Dublin, Lansdowne Road, 12.100
REP. IRELAND 0-1 NORTHERN IRELAND [HT 0-0]
Scorer: Danny Griffin 85'

As for your P.S., if NI have found their level, then I am happy enough - then again, I don't have unrealistic expectations about my team, unlike some.
And if you are correct that the ROI should be a top twenty team, when they are barely top 50, how is that a cause for pride?
Jeesus, I was embarrassed when my team dropped outside the top 100. What will you do you when Stan drags you down there? Shout it from the rooftops:
"We may be lower than Vanuatu in the World Rankings, but it doesn't matter, because we should be in the Top 20!"

[youngirish]

EalingGreen the truth hurts and it sounds like I hit a nerve. Healy is a big fish in the small pond that is the NI team. He is their main man. He takes all their penalties and is the one they constantly rely on to score goals. This is because the majority of the rest of their team (and particularly their strikers) are sh*te. The majority of NI chances end with presenting Healy with the ball and tbh it's not a tactic that has worked too well for the team as a whole for 90% of his International career. This is what I meant by big fish in a small pond so your comparisons to Keane are again irrelevant.

Keane who also has a great International goalscoring record is the subject of criticism because we have alternatives and rightly he should be. You only worship Healy because as mediocre a Championship player as he is you have no alternatives (Kyle Lafferty is terrible).

What's your point anyway are you seriously stating that at club level Healy is cr*p (he plays for the worst team in the Championship) but when he plays at International level he becomes Pele?

Maybe we should try all those untested Irish League 1 and League 2 players in our next match then. We could have an undiscovered team of Maradonas. No one but a biased, unrealistic, slightly insane, NI fan would even suggest Healy is anywhere near the player Keane or Doyle (etc) are at International level or otherwise. My English workmates here are laughing hysterically at the suggestion.

Oh yeah and as for your other laughable suggestion that because of your lower seedings Healy has had to play against tougher opposition than Keane. Do you really stand by this argument? Look at the WCQ group you found yourselves in last time. If we'd have been in it even with Kerr we'd have pi**ed all over it. England, Poland, Austria, Azerbaijan and Wales tougher opposition than France, Israel, Switzerland and even Cyprus? Poland were possibly the poorest team in the entire WC. Do you even watch football?

[EalingGreen]

Earth to Ealing: We can't do international rivalries with 'provinces', hence why I find your 'nearest neighbours' statement pathetically hysterical. May I point you to your nearest provincial neighbours: Scotland. I believe they've stitched up the IFA more times than we have, but such is your racial affinity to them and racial hostility to everyone in Ireland that doesn't see themselves as British, that you seem very concerned on ourweeminds about the players we are 'poaching' from them.

This thread is about the respective rankings of ROI and NI. Scotland have nothing to do with it, nor the relationship between the IFA and the SFA, still less any "racial affinity" which you imagine I have with Scotland.

As for my alleged "racial hostility to everyone in Ireland that [sic] doesn't see themselves [sic] as British", nowhere have I denied the right of anyone born anywhere in Ireland to identify him or herself however he/she likes; indeed, it would be hypocritical of me to do so, since an an Irishman born and bred myself, I reserve the same right for myself.

However, that is not the same as my not wishing to see NI-born players, who have been coached and developed through the IFA system, subsequently declare for another Association, especially if that declaration should turn out to be in breech of FIFA's Rules.

Quite the contrary, in fact: I look forward to seeing as many as possible of the next generation of young NI players join the List of my past and present footballing heroes, such as Healy, Michael Hughes, Armstrong, O'Neill, Hamilton, Jennings, Best etc, entirely irrespective of extraneous concerns, such as their personal political aspirations.

[EalingGreen]

EalingGreen the truth hurts and it sounds like I hit a nerve. Healy is a big fish in the small pond that is the NI team. He is their main man. He takes all their penalties and is the one they constantly rely on to score goals. This is because the majority of the rest of their team (and particularly their strikers) are sh*te. The majority of NI chances end with presenting Healy with the ball and tbh it's not a tactic that has worked too well for the team as a whole for 90% of his International career. This is what I meant by big fish in a small pond so your comparisons to Keane are again irrelevant.

Keane who also has a great International goalscoring record is the subject of criticism because we have alternatives and rightly he should be. You only worship Healy because as mediocre a Championship player as he is you have no alternatives (Kyle Lafferty is terrible).

What's your point anyway are you seriously stating that at club level Healy is cr*p (he plays for the worst team in the Championship) but when he plays at International level he becomes Pele?

Maybe we should try all those untested Irish League 1 and League 2 players in our next match then. We could have an undiscovered team of Maradonas. No one but a biased, unrealistic, slightly insane, NI fan would even suggest Healy is anywhere near the player Keane or Doyle (etc) are at International level or otherwise. My English workmates here are laughing hysterically at the suggestion.

Let me try another way.

The NI fans adore Healy. This is because his effort, commitment and scoring record are unquestionable. It doesn't matter whether he scores all our goals, some of our goals or even none of our goals. It doesn't matter to us how is club career is going, since it isn't affecting his international career. As for the disparity between his current form for Leeds and NI, we don't fully understand it, but neither do we care.

How many ROI fans would put their name to the following?
The ROI fans adore Robbie Keane. This is because his effort, commitment and scoring record are unquestionable. It doesn't matter whether he scores all our goals, some of our goals or even none of our goals. It doesn't matter to us how is club career is going, since it isn't affecting his international career. As for the disparity between his current form for Spurs and ROI, we don't fully understand it, but neither do we care.

Oh, and Kyle Lafferty has only just turned 19.

P.S. Do you find that your workmates often "laugh hysterically" in your presence?

[as_i_say]

kyle who?

[EalingGreen]

kyle who?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyle_Lafferty

We have high hopes for young Kyle, as does his club.

[ifk101]

OK, if Big Maik is to be excluded, our back-up is Roy Carroll. Are you saying he wouldn't get picked ahead of Henderson? (Actually, if Stan were the manager, it's entirely possible... )

You're comparing the North's two first choice goalies with Ireland's third choice. And don't forget that Big Maik is playing second fiddle to an Irish U21 international at his club. So stop getting carried away ....

[EalingGreen]

You're comparing the North's two first choice goalies with Ireland's third choice. And don't forget that Big Maik is playing second fiddle to an Irish U21 international at his club. So stop getting carried away ....

No, I have consistently been comparing the (injury-depleted) XI who turned out for NI last Tuesday week with the (injury depleted) XI who represented ROI the following night. Those players who had withdrawn from the squads were not considered.
Anyhow, from what I saw of Wayne "Whoops A Daisy" Henderson out in San Marino, I think I'd pick NI's third choice ahead of him - and he plays for Wrexham!

[gustavo]

No, I have consistently been comparing the (injury-depleted) XI who turned out for NI last Tuesday week with the (injury depleted) XI who represented ROI the following night. Those players who had withdrawn from the squads were not considered.
Anyhow, from what I saw of Wayne "Whoops A Daisy" Henderson out in San Marino, I think I'd pick NI's third choice ahead of him - and he plays for Wrexham!

Well then you arent comparing like with like then, Henderson is our third choice goalkeeper. Compare and contrast Given and Kenny with your two all you like but try to compare like with like.

[geysir]

However, that is not the same as my not wishing to see NI-born players, who have been coached and developed through the IFA system, subsequently declare for another Association, especially if that declaration should turn out to be in breech of FIFA's Rules.

Wishes aside,
do you understand FIFA's rules on the matter, specifically the relevant article 15.3?
What are the grounds for suspecting a breech of regulations?

[EalingGreen]

Well then you arent comparing like with like then, Henderson is our third choice goalkeeper. Compare and contrast Given and Kenny with your two all you like but try to compare like with like.

Simply not so, Gus. When I originally listed five NI players who would have got into the ROI team v San Marino, I only selected from those who had played for us v Wales the previous evening i.e. the comparison was between those who were available to each manager.

Consequently, the NI five did not include the injured Healy, Evans and Johnson, all three of whom would (imo) have done better than the three ROI players in their respective positions.

Be honest, on the evidence of the display in San Marino, five of the NI WAG's would have improved Stan's lot!

[youngirish]

Be honest, on the evidence of the display in San Marino, five of the NI WAG's would have improved Stan's lot!

On what evidence? Replace good players with average to sh*te players under the same manager and they'd do better? Stop talking out of your ar*e for once.

The problem isn't the players. If we had all 11 NI players under the management of Stan the other night we'd have got hammerred by San Marino instead of sneaked a victory.

Johnson, Healy and Evans? God give me strength.

[EalingGreen]

Wishes aside,
do you understand FIFA's rules on the matter, specifically the relevant article 15.3?
What are the grounds for suspecting a breech of regulations?

There is another thread on this matter, so I shall merely say that the FAI states it has a letter from FIFA which reassures them that the disputed players are eligible for the ROI. They may well be correct, but they have not published this letter, nor have they selected any NI-born player in a competitive fixture since the dispute arose (though this latter may well be coincidence).

The IFA took advice on this issue and considers the FAI to be incorrect. When they took it up with FIFA, FIFA asked for documentary evidence from the IFA, which was supplied. FIFA are now considering it.

Personally, I have studied this closely and I can't decide which case will prevail, since I can see the case each Association is trying to make. Consequently, I'm content to wait.

[youngirish]

Wishes aside,
do you understand FIFA's rules on the matter, specifically the relevant article 15.3?
What are the grounds for suspecting a breech of regulations?

No grounds. Sour grapes all round that's all. No FIFA action will be taken against the FAI because they've done nothing wrong despite the paranoia floating about up North. The IFA are just making a fuss to try to keep their members happy that they are trying to do everything they can to stop Nationalists switching in droves to the Republic but FIFA won't impose any penalties on the FAI and the situation will continue as usual.

If they really want to stop this problem they should look at ways of making the image of the NI team more appealing to those of a nationalist persuasion. Ditching God Save the Queen at games would be a start.